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Water in The Oil! HELP!

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Water in The Oil! HELP! Empty Water in The Oil! HELP!

Post  stevesgarage June 26th 2020, 4:43 pm

First time started, my fresh 501 build gets coolant in the oil pan! Pulled the new TFS heads, gaskets are okay. Bolted on block-off plates to eliminate the heads & intake manifold and when the cooling system is about half full, the water starts running out the oil pan drain. (It's mounted on a run stand.) We started with a used block but everything else is new. We tried changing the timing cover and water pump, same problem. I'm thinking that I should have started with a new A460 or Eliminator block. Any other ideas?
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Post  69F100 June 27th 2020, 6:11 am

The block it's self maybe cracked if you didn't here it run before you built it might have been setting with water in it and frooze and cracked it. I bought a engine one time that was sitting in a corner of a barn built it and it would do the same thing as your. Not saying it's your block causing it but the one I bought was cracked at the water jacket around a cylinder between cam and lifters. We pressurized the block with the heads on and the pan off is how we found it
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Post  airford1 June 27th 2020, 12:01 pm

Aint no magic here. Time to file this in the BUMMER Box. I had water in the oil pan and I was pretty sure it was the intake gaskets. Errored on the safe side and sent the block in to be tagged and the heads done with a crank polish. Not the time to be cheap.
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Post  stevesgarage June 27th 2020, 1:55 pm

Yeah, thanks for the replies, but I guess I knew the answer before I posted.  Ford has no stock on the A460 and I'm not waiting till October for the new A460X.  Maybe Kaase or one of the other BBF builders / Ford Perf dealers has an A460 in stock or I could go with an Eliminator block.  'Bummer Box' indeed! Still going to need to bore the new block to 4.390 and deck it to 10.300.  The first block I had was too rusty to clean up with .030 over.  The second had a camshaft binding problem that wouldn't be resolved.  So this is 'seasoned' block #3, and I'm done!  Anybody in or near So Cal with a new A460 for sale?
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Post  rmcomprandy June 27th 2020, 9:05 pm

stevesgarage wrote:Yeah, thanks for the replies, but I guess I knew the answer before I posted.  Ford has no stock on the A460 and I'm not waiting till October for the new A460X.  Maybe Kaase or one of the other BBF builders / Ford Perf dealers has an A460 in stock or I could go with an Eliminator block.  'Bummer Box' indeed! Still going to need to bore the new block to 4.390 and deck it to 10.300.  The first block I had was too rusty to clean up with .030 over.  The second had a camshaft binding problem that wouldn't be resolved.  So this is 'seasoned' block #3, and I'm done!  Anybody in or near So Cal with a new A460 for sale?

Locate exactly where it is leaking and fix it ...

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Post  Curt June 27th 2020, 9:43 pm

stevesgarage wrote:Yeah, thanks for the replies, but I guess I knew the answer before I posted.  Ford has no stock on the A460 and I'm not waiting till October for the new A460X.  Maybe Kaase or one of the other BBF builders / Ford Perf dealers has an A460 in stock or I could go with an Eliminator block.  'Bummer Box' indeed! Still going to need to bore the new block to 4.390 and deck it to 10.300.  The first block I had was too rusty to clean up with .030 over.  The second had a camshaft binding problem that wouldn't be resolved.  So this is 'seasoned' block #3, and I'm done!  Anybody in or near So Cal with a new A460 for sale?

Have you called Lem?
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Post  Paul Kane June 28th 2020, 10:49 am

I have a thermo-cleaned and mag checked C9VE block with a good usable 0.030” overbore that I can deliver to SoCal—I’m actually in San Fernando right now and could have brought it along with this trip. I’m in the area regularly and could bring it in perhaps 2 weeks. We use 2-bolt blocks in 750-800 HP customer builds regularly, you don’t need an A460 block if you’re making power in that range.  Call me if interested, I can personally deliver/no commercial freight involved, and your build will be back on track. Cool
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Post  stanger68 June 28th 2020, 11:02 am

I agree with Randy. Before I spent 4 grand on a block and machine work. I'd at least do a pressure test to find the exact location of the leak and see if it can be welded. These days cast iron welding is way more reliable than it was 30 years ago.

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Post  stevesgarage June 28th 2020, 1:05 pm

Paul Kane wrote:I have a thermo-cleaned and mag checked C9VE block with a good usable 0.030” overbore that I can deliver to SoCal—I’m actually in San Fernando right now and could have brought it along with this trip. I’m in the area regularly and could bring it in perhaps 2 weeks. We use 2-bolt blocks in 750-800 HP customer builds regularly, you don’t need an A460 block if you’re making power in that range.  Call me if interested, I can personally deliver/no commercial freight involved, and your build will be back on track. Cool

Thanks Paul, that's a very generous and tempting offer!  I understand that the level of my build (around 650 HP) does not NEED an A460 block, but if I can find one in the next few days I think I'll probably go with it.  If not, I'll give you a call, Paul.  ALL the guys on this forum have been EXTREMELY helpful with your advice on this build, and I am grateful.
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Post  airford1 June 28th 2020, 4:33 pm

stevesgarage wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:I have a thermo-cleaned and mag checked C9VE block with a good usable 0.030” overbore that I can deliver to SoCal—I’m actually in San Fernando right now and could have brought it along with this trip. I’m in the area regularly and could bring it in perhaps 2 weeks. We use 2-bolt blocks in 750-800 HP customer builds regularly, you don’t need an A460 block if you’re making power in that range.  Call me if interested, I can personally deliver/no commercial freight involved, and your build will be back on track. Cool

Thanks Paul, that's a very generous and tempting offer!  I understand that the level of my build (around 650 HP) does not NEED an A460 block, but if I can find one in the next few days I think I'll probably go with it.  If not, I'll give you a call, Paul.  ALL the guys on this forum have been EXTREMELY helpful with your advice on this build, and I am grateful.
I'm running a stock block with 650hp and 650 tq at the flywheel and I built this engine in 2009, Cant imagine spending the extra money and not needing that block,
Take the deal.
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Post  stevesgarage June 29th 2020, 2:16 pm

Paul Kane wrote:I have a thermo-cleaned and mag checked C9VE block with a good usable 0.030” overbore that I can deliver to SoCal—I’m actually in San Fernando right now and could have brought it along with this trip. I’m in the area regularly and could bring it in perhaps 2 weeks. We use 2-bolt blocks in 750-800 HP customer builds regularly, you don’t need an A460 block if you’re making power in that range.  Call me if interested, I can personally deliver/no commercial freight involved, and your build will be back on track. Cool

Sent a PM.
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Water in The Oil! HELP! Empty Internal block coolant leak - Cause?

Post  stevesgarage July 28th 2020, 6:44 pm

Prepping a new block but never determined the cause of the coolant going into the oil pan in the old block. Heads, head gaskets, all okay. Is there any chance of a too - long timing cover bolt damaging the block and causing an internal leak? Used a socket head engine accessory bolt kit.
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Post  rmcomprandy July 29th 2020, 10:22 am

Just had an irate customer with the same thing happening so, he brought the entire engine back; (I built only the Long block).
The gaskets before and after the plate behind the water pump were installed in the wrong order by whoever finished it, (I will presume, HIM). His front cover has also been machined by someone probably so, he can change cam timing without removing the cover. (After he fixes the water problem, I can see it will leak oil, out of the notch in the water pump cavity bottom).

I am leaving the witnesses dis-assembled just as it is and he can come and get it.  I will not touch anything from him going forward.
He has already badmouthed me to everyone he can.
I am not divulging anything other than the water issue. Finding his new oil leak problem will be totally on him.

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Post  Paul Kane July 29th 2020, 3:28 pm

stevesgarage wrote:...  Is there any chance of a too - long timing cover bolt damaging the block and causing an internal leak?  Used a socket head engine accessory bolt kit.  
While there are a couple of timing cover bolt holes that reach into--or can conceivably break through into--the water jacket, none of them ought to make for the gross leak you describe when the timing cover & all timing cover bolts are installed.

You might want to do that water test again when the rotating assembly is removed from the engine block and watch from the underside.
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Post  stevesgarage July 31st 2020, 3:15 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:Just had an irate customer with the same thing happening so, he brought the entire engine back; (I built only the Long block).
The gaskets before and after the plate behind the water pump were installed in the wrong order by whoever finished it, (I will presume, HIM). His front cover has also been machined by someone probably so, he can change cam timing without removing the cover. (After he fixes the water problem, I can see it will leak oil, out of the notch in the water pump cavity bottom).

I am leaving the witnesses dis-assembled just as it is and he can come and get it.  I will not touch anything from him going forward.
He has already badmouthed me to everyone he can.
I am not divulging anything other than the water issue. Finding his new oil leak problem will be totally on him.

Randy, I spent the first half of my 50 year mechanical career in retail and I feel your pain!  I found that there is a percentage of the population that demands someone be held accountable (blamed) for any bad thing that happens.  Me, I just want to fix it.  Ranting about who's at fault never corrects the problem and I honestly feel badly for those people.  My inquiry was prompted by curiosity and a desire to NOT make the same mistake on my new block!  I supplied the bolt kit, my builder installed it and all I care about is getting my engine done.
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Post  stevesgarage July 31st 2020, 3:29 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
stevesgarage wrote:...  Is there any chance of a too - long timing cover bolt damaging the block and causing an internal leak?  Used a socket head engine accessory bolt kit.  
While there are a couple of timing cover bolt holes that reach into--or can conceivably break through into--the water jacket, none of them ought to make for the gross leak you describe when the timing cover & all timing cover bolts are installed.

You might want to do that water test again when the rotating assembly is removed from the engine block and watch from the underside.

Thanks for that reply Paul, AND a big thanks for my new block! I will always be grateful for your generosity of your time and effort to help get my build back on track. My builder is pleased with the block, has evened up the decks and is going forward with reassembly. It was one of his guys that had that theory of the timing cover bolt and will be taking a closer look after teardown.
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Post  rmcomprandy July 31st 2020, 9:05 pm

stevesgarage wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Just had an irate customer with the same thing happening so, he brought the entire engine back; (I built only the Long block).
The gaskets before and after the plate behind the water pump were installed in the wrong order by whoever finished it, (I will presume, HIM). His front cover has also been machined by someone probably so, he can change cam timing without removing the cover. (After he fixes the water problem, I can see it will leak oil, out of the notch in the water pump cavity bottom).

I am leaving the witnesses dis-assembled just as it is and he can come and get it.  I will not touch anything from him going forward.
He has already badmouthed me to everyone he can.
I am not divulging anything other than the water issue. Finding his new oil leak problem will be totally on him.

Randy, I spent the first half of my 50 year mechanical career in retail and I feel your pain!  I found that there is a percentage of the population that demands someone be held accountable (blamed) for any bad thing that happens.  Me, I just want to fix it.  Ranting about who's at fault never corrects the problem and I honestly feel badly for those people.  My inquiry was prompted by curiosity and a desire to NOT make the same mistake on my new block!  I supplied the bolt kit, my builder installed it and all I care about is getting my engine done.

I totally agree ... just address the issue and get it fixed.
You are going about it,  the right way.

Whatever was done wrong, certainly wasn't done on purpose.

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Post  stevesgarage November 6th 2020, 2:47 pm

I'm reviving this thread because of a recent discovery.  On re-assembling my 501 with the replacement block, it was discovered that the plate behind the water pump was not installed.  Has anyone else ever done this?  What was the result?
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Post  gt350hr November 6th 2020, 3:50 pm

Water leaks because there is a notch in the cover at the bottom and poor water flow because the plate "directs" the water unlike the cover casting.

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Post  stevesgarage November 6th 2020, 6:11 pm

gt350hr wrote:   Water leaks because there is a notch in the cover at the bottom and poor water flow because the plate "directs" the water unlike the cover casting.

That IS true for the small block timing cover, but not the 429/460 front cover.  Just tried to attach pictures of both but seem to have forgotten how!  (senior moment). The only thing that makes sense is that the lack of the plate allowed the coolant to enter the area of the cover where the dipstick tube passes through.  And maybe the tube wasn't fully inserted(?)
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Post  stevesgarage November 6th 2020, 6:19 pm

Water in The Oil! HELP! Bbf_fr10

Water in The Oil! HELP! Sbf_ti11

Okay, BBF on top, SBF on bottom.
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Post  rmcomprandy November 6th 2020, 9:05 pm

stevesgarage wrote:First time started, my fresh 501 build gets coolant in the oil pan!  Pulled the new TFS heads, gaskets are okay.  Bolted on block-off plates to eliminate the heads & intake manifold and when the cooling system is about half full, the water starts running out the oil pan drain. (It's mounted on a run stand.) We started with a used block but everything else is new.  We tried changing the timing cover and water pump, same problem.  I'm thinking that I should have started with a new A460 or Eliminator block.  Any other ideas?

Is the required sheet metal plate between the water pump and front cover in place...?
Just using the wrong gasket in the wrong place will leak water.
The gasket in front of the plate and the one behind the plate are different.

EDIT:  never mind ...I didn't realize this was a resurrected old thread.

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Post  stevesgarage November 7th 2020, 4:36 pm

rmcomprandy wrote: Is the required sheet metal plate between the water pump and front cover in place...?
Just using the wrong gasket in the wrong place will leak water.
The gasket in front of the plate and the one behind the plate are different.

EDIT:  never mind ...I didn't realize this was a resurrected old thread.

Well, you're exactly right, Randy.  The water pump plate WAS NOT installed, I know the 2 gaskets are different, but not sure which one was used. It's now back on the run stand and so far it seems to hold water pressure but has not yet been run.  I had supplied a Ford Motorsports water pump and plate to my builder.  When the pump was sent out to be polished it got separated from the plate and apparently installed without it.  Noone at the facility seems to be sure on exactly who installed it or even what happened to the plate.  Rolling Eyes  So I lost about 6 months and spent $500 for another block I may not have needed but I still don't really care, I just want to hear it run and get it in my roadster!
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Water in The Oil! HELP! Empty 429 thunderjet milky oil heart broken

Post  Mommabigblock March 10th 2021, 12:42 pm

Hey fellow big blockers, thanks for allowing me to join! I've got 429 (engine swap) in a 65 ford galaxie 500. Dove c heads dove a block. Hoping for some insight. Milky oil pretty sure I have a blown head gasket at the very least. Sigh...looking for tips on replacing the head gaskets, and what yall have found to be the best gasket to use. Thanks again for the add

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