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MSD Grid & Nitrous

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Post  nedceifus September 2nd 2022, 10:44 am

Wanting to run some nitrous with a grid. Can you drop timing in proportion to ramping in NO2?
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Post  supervel45 September 2nd 2022, 3:36 pm

Are you talking about the Holley/MSD 7730 model?

https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/drag_racing/power_grid/parts/7730

Are you going to mix any race gas with your 10/1 compression combo?

Still at the 200HP max deal?

I know the questions are not direct to what you asked but, sometimes more info can be helpful.

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Post  supervel45 September 2nd 2022, 4:22 pm

With the I beam Eagles being the limiting factor, this may be a cheaper solution along with just setting the timing lower at the distributor and letting her rip. It may also help this way if traction is limited and the timing can be where it needs to be for the full hit. Just my thoughts anyway.



https://www.holley.com/products/nitrous/controllers_and_accessories/controllers/parts/25974NOS

The link also says it has some timing retard options also, I don't know if it works with the 6AL though or if you have to have another box added?

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Post  stanger68 September 3rd 2022, 12:14 am

Yes.

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Post  supervel45 September 3rd 2022, 12:33 am

5 stages of retard with the 7730. So ^ Yelp.

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Post  nedceifus September 29th 2022, 10:46 am

I recon I’ll keep it simple for now & use the Holley NO2 controller along with my 6AL & keep it fairly simple. Yes, I will have a separate fuel cell with race gas for nitrous use. Drag/drive type build.
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Post  supervel45 September 29th 2022, 5:52 pm

It's too bad these are not 100 bucks like they used to be. It does not get much simpler.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8680?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjwhNWZBhB_EiwAPzlhNtfH7qf2EPzUMZwWOlbe3xbJnQYZIeYP_TkGytHwXToXJGcaom_znBoCtQQQAvD_BwE

With that said these new boxes give you the progressive Nitrous control and timing retard on the fly and friendly screen programming.

It's great for the bigger hits "Nos Progressive Controller" but, seems a little overkill on a 200 shot. With the price of the dial box " one in the above link "now it does not make sense anymore not to go progressive.

I just don't like a bunch of electronics to go out or malfunction and have to trouble shoot especially with Nitrous. KISS principle for me.

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Post  supervel45 September 29th 2022, 6:56 pm

Looks like the NOS controller will need a stand alone timing box also.

https://www.holley.com/products/nitrous/controllers_and_accessories/controllers/parts/25974NOS

Watch the video at the bottom of the link, he goes into some of it but not enough on the retard deal.

The Summit add seemed to make it seem that it would control timing, by itself, until you reread it twice. Crying or Very sad

If you are going to run dual fuel with switch on the fly and Nitrous, the MSD manual Dial box is handy though.

Trucks with dual tanks were set to go from the factory with that. Cool

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Post  nedceifus September 30th 2022, 11:47 am

This is kinda what I’m debating. By the time I keep adding components am I better off just going with a system like the Grid. I called Holley & talked to them about a Terminator, but he said something about O2 sensors not working out right. Ill look into those links
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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 2:37 pm

That's probably why they raised the price so high on the dial box. It was too cheap and easy with smaller shots just to back the timing up from the hit.
If you run race gas and/or a fatter fuel pill then they did on that 557 video with a 200 shot you would not have to back the timing down as much as they did. Since the Cheater and Big Shot plates came out NOS in their infinite wisdom has all but, reversed the recomended jet sizes. I have never washed out any rings on the old tunes.
Let the car roll out enough in first and then spray it. If it won't take it hit it in second gear.
For the price of the Grid you could have a adjustable Power Shot plate for a first stage if you wanted.

If you want to stay old school cut that Victor open and put a 1050 Dominator on it and work on traction.

Yea, I'm not big on over priced Chinese electronics so there's that. Neutral

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Post  nedceifus September 30th 2022, 3:00 pm

So that adjustable timing box says it’s programmable. But in the descriptions I’ve found I don’t see how. Do you link it to the N2O control & it pulls timing when the N2O is turned on? Or do you have to dial timing down every time you plan to spray it?
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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 3:40 pm

Yea their joking with the programable part. If you read it closely they say it's programable with the "dial" "knob".

So yes the box with the dial knob is manual and you turn it down when you spray or switch fuels, ect..

To me that is a benefit as you can hear the engine change, look at the dial setting and be confident the timing is retarded.

With the other boxes that come on durning the pass you have to trust they are all working properly and setup correctly. Seems like just more to go wrong in my opinion.

Before the grid came out other RPM retard boxes were used for nitrous and if memory serves could be changed with the different chips like in the old 6AL box or they had dial pots. I had and adjustable rev limiter chip for my 6AL that worked that way by adjusting the resistance of the chip.

Below is an Old School Box.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384727482826?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=384727482826&targetid=1645685074288&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=1026515&poi=&campaignid=16730423415&mkgroupid=135815925780&rlsatarget=pla-1645685074288&abcId=9300841&merchantid=8026134&gclid=CjwKCAjwp9qZBhBkEiwAsYFsb5XOlsEcdkAU7Aejj2SkwHCoIyjZznnvN9CKZttaJ7XYvYyf-n7n8xoCYYIQAvD_BwE

This is the Chip I have.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Shifnoid/254/NCRPM4000/10002/-1?gclid=CjwKCAjwp9qZBhBkEiwAsYFsb13e7WaYSf833-by5LG9Jrvc971zjaS9gkXItjF5gaTeKkXPvT2S7RoCW6EQAvD_BwE

If I was spraying a much bigger shot then 200, sure the new stuff would be the way to go. We used to have to work around it before the advanced programable stuff came out.

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 4:00 pm

I believe the adjustable chips would replace this box much cheaper on the older stuff.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8676?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjwp9qZBhBkEiwAsYFsb23H4pmSh3uvtZcN8xhMBhKJA0vEXbZzZIIrICHJWX5UDThjLaq1bBoCaWgQAvD_BwE

^Note: The MSD 8676 box in the link above has to be used with a separate retard box also. You just don't have to replace chips all the time.

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 4:37 pm

Take a look at this one. The price is not too bad but, like you said it looks like the Grid has more features.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8975?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjwp9qZBhBkEiwAsYFsbzcETf6pbbA1QSIeKlnBwA-2ovoTt4mNiixiK2x6EDTvL6fWLQ1z8RoC0rEQAvD_BwE


Instructions for it. Watch out for the Summit/Jegs descriptions sometimes they are misleading.

https://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/100/121/121-8975.pdf


If the NOS controller drops the ground to the MSD retard box channels, which it most likely does, it will work with it also. If not add a relay.


If you notice at the bottom of the MSD instructions channel 3 can be used as a high gear retard with a micro switch.

What they don't tell you is a toggle switch on the dash board on that channel (3) when not grounded will give you a adjustable manual control off the dashpot on the box. Flip the switch you are back to advanced normal timing. Wink  I believe that you may be able to wire the remote knob in on  channel 3 or 4 also. It's just a $10.00 reostat anyway.

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 7:07 pm

Here is the Old School version I mentioned with the chips. It's a 3 Channel.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384406007342?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=384406007342&targetid=1645685073528&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9027791&poi=&campaignid=16730423415&mkgroupid=135815925780&rlsatarget=pla-1645685073528&abcId=9300841&merchantid=8026134&gclid=CjwKCAjwp9qZBhBkEiwAsYFsb2Uk2if83JAUffns-KZHBcst9UPGfh0mzJpbPfQM1GEg0JQmN5yPBBoCuPAQAvD_BwE


https://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/100/121/121-8970.pdf


Last edited by supervel45 on September 30th 2022, 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 7:22 pm

Here are your MSD 7730 Grid instructions for comparison. Have fun.

Looks more complicated to me, your mileage may vary.



https://documents.holley.com/frm30299_7730_77303_4c.pdf

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 8:14 pm

And to try to clear something else up. The Nos Controller is more to just modulate the solenoids on both single or two stage kit ie a Second plate or a Fogger. You can Modulate Both Stages Now.

When they first came out they where for single stage, and aimed at helping you get off the line.

It is used mostly to get you off the line with the first kit. This  new one lets you do two kits and has the handheld programmer.

It can be used with the MSD Retard boxes above and have the retard features from the MSD Retard Boxes used to Control  the 1st and 2nd stage retard stages if you desire. You still need you ignition module MSD 6A or the others, as you know, others  reading this later may not.

The  YELLOW and ORANGE 12 VOLT OUTPUT are for Retard Channels.

This means you will NEED a 12 Volt Normally Closed Relay to the MSD Timing Retard Box on EACH CHANNEL
if you desire 2 stages of Retard, as they Retard by removing their Channel Output Wire from ground or being wired in with the SOLENOIDS which ACTS as a Ground when Energized.
DON"T DO THAT WITH the NOS CONTOLLER OUT PUTS!

I would also reccomend puting a 1 Amp fuse on those Outputs! NOS Controller that is.


https://www.holley.com/products/nitrous/controllers_and_accessories/controllers/parts/25974NOS

^ This Controller is the controller I am talking about.

https://documents.holley.com/199r11937.pdf

The point in getting a Manual Knob Control in the mix is that you can lower your base timing without resetting all your Nitrous Retard Amounts but, Still lower you Total Timing. You could do that with a 3 Channel MSD box as described in a previous post.  I am sure that came out clear as mud but, I think you can see what I am getting at.

You can put a TPS switch on a Holley Carburetor also or you can use a micro switch with the NOS Controller.

The Old School Trick with the micro switch to stage it was to put it on the secondary accelerator pump arm cam.

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Post  supervel45 September 30th 2022, 10:30 pm

And for anybody that has/comes across a old Timing Control Retard Box and a bag of REV Chips or and Adjustable chip here is the resistance value cross over chart. Cool

https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/MSDchipvalues.html

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Post  nedceifus October 3rd 2022, 7:07 pm

Thank you for all of the input. I “think” I’ll try the MSD 8975 in combination with the NOS mini 2 stage with my 6AL & pro billet. I’ll talk to MSD again tomorrow. The guy I talked to today was not sure. I’m leery of a dial & would rather have my full timing until the nitrous is activated. The 8975 will give me start retard also, so that is cool. Thanks again.
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Post  supervel45 October 3rd 2022, 8:11 pm

nedceifus wrote:Thank you for all of the input. I “think” I’ll try the MSD 8975 in combination with the NOS mini 2 stage with my 6AL & pro billet. I’ll talk to MSD again tomorrow. The guy I talked to today was not sure. I’m leery of a dial & would rather have my full timing until the nitrous is activated. The  8975 will give me start retard also, so that is cool. Thanks again.



^ You're welcome. That is a very nice combination and will give you more control with the Nitrous ie solenoid modulation.

Double check with MSD about a relay from the NOS 12V/Retard Signal Outputs to the MSD 8975 Channel Inputs and ask about External Fusing of them also, the NOS 12 Volt outputs that is. Ask him if the signal is grounded with No Load if it will Burn Out the Nos Controller?

I would also take Heed of what the NOS instructions said about the Advanced settings/hookup and Skip That. It's a quick way to blow your engine/carburetor/intake/bend valves/throttle blades up or off, in my opinion, and experience with Nitrous Lean Back Fires.

The toggle switch to one of the unused channels of the 8975 could just be used to retard the timing for pump gas/or.

You would have to go to the box to set how much retard on it.

If you ground that channel all the Nitrous Retards Stay the Same ie Advanced setting until activated.

If you leave it grounded you get the advanced/desired timing retard you want.

So you kind of get a remote dial anyway if you wanted, if you use the feature.

If you had a poor traction surface like on the street it would be a quick Tuning Aid also. Mount the box under the dash where you can get to it easy and the dials facing out, with a pocket screwdriver in the ashtray. Cool Sure you can do it with the Hand Held and take power away on the solenoids, but Old School can come in handy sometimes and a dial is quick to turn and you can fine tune with timing also. Smile

Too bad they don't still make that 8760 single chip box, that all you really need for a single stage kit. The above combination with the start retard and high gear/switch retard tied in to the NOS controller is pretty Slick I must say.

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Post  nedceifus October 4th 2022, 8:33 am

I’m a little baffled that I can not find a “map or schematic” anywhere on the Holley, MSD or NOS websight telling a guy exactly how these components are used together to achieve a complete, comprehensive system. I don’t feel like I’m doing anything fancy. Just want a little spray in a safe, consistent manner. What plate system are you using? I was thinking the Nitrous Express Assassin plate system with the perimeter spray. They advertise it as a good plate to use for the Ford applications. I port matched my intake to my Jomar Power cone to try & get a good carb to intake transition. I can see where the 4500 series carbs would be a lot better at spreading fuel/air in that plenum, but, fer now this is what I have.
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Post  supervel45 October 4th 2022, 10:03 am

nedceifus wrote:I’m a little baffled that I can not find a “map or schematic” anywhere on the Holley, MSD or NOS websight telling a guy exactly how these components are used together to achieve a complete, comprehensive system. I don’t feel like I’m doing anything fancy. Just want a little spray in a safe, consistent manner. What plate system are you using? I was thinking the Nitrous Express Assassin plate system with the perimeter spray. They advertise it as a good plate to use for the Ford applications. I port matched my intake to my Jomar Power cone to try & get a good carb to intake transition. I can see where the 4500 series carbs would be a lot better at spreading fuel/air in that plenum, but, fer now this is what I have.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I noticed what you are saying about Holley MSD NOS interface instructions also, they suck an may not even have any. They are all one big company now, so who knows.

You are modulating the ground side of the Solenoids. I don't know how that would get along with hooking the MSD Retard box output channels on the +positive side of the Solenoids like the MSD instructions show it when used as a stand alone box. You would also lose your programming ability with the NOS Controller of that output.

I would Fuse the NOS Controller Yellow and Orange wires regardless of what anybody says.

On the relays better safe then sorry is my take. You are only going to need one micro relay for a single stage kit anyway.

No you are not really doing anything that fancy. If I remember right that NOS 1st gen. controller came out in the late 1980's and I almost bought one. I had too much traction for my rear ends with an off the line hit all ready and did not need it as I was not going for the 275/325 shots, mostly 225 and lower, except in a blue moon. Had the MSD Dial timing control though, got sick of the timing light wrench bit in the dark. About as Simple as it gets.

I always used the NOS Cheater, Bigshot, and had one Edelbrock plate. They still work but, the technology has come a long way.

I don't keep up with the new Nitrous stuff much any more. The way I look at the smaller plate systems like this is, if you want more HP put a bigger jet in a NOS Big Shot plate and it will make more HP then I can use.

You can do as you like on tunes, I was always conservative and erred on the side of rich and less timing. The factory NOS jetting was much fatter back then.

I would keep a timing light in the car and keep a close eye on it. I had a mechanical advance stop break once.
That was not a good thing. That was mechanical but, electronics can fail, lose calibration also. If it can go wrong it will, is a good moto around Nitrous is all.

Make sure you fuel system is up to the task, and a visible fuel gauge is extremely nice especially if you run 1/4 mile.

If you want to try the Nitrous Express system go for it. I would think it works good on all the Big Three.

The Dominators have two big advantages. One they have bigger throttle blades then you can put in a 4150 Holley. This lets the main body taper the holes and get better Venturi affect, as it is intended, hence a better signal to the boosters. Two, it is wider and puts the boosters closer to the intake valve. Your 4150 will be fine for what you are doing, you are just leaving a little on the table.

As far as the power cone and other spacers the only way to really know is to test them on a race track in a consistent manner, back to back and see which combo produces the quickest ET.

After all this I hope you post a good burn out video and Nitrous pass. I have a soft spot for that style/year Galaxie. Cool

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Post  nedceifus October 4th 2022, 11:19 am

The goal is video of this old pig taking down the turbo LS guys from my home town…😁
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Post  supervel45 October 4th 2022, 12:27 pm

This guy brings up some good points on the NOS box ect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNiLCCv6r50

I have another idea on the wiring of the retard box/solenoids but, I am going to save it for now.

You will need to be on your game to get the power to the ground on the street with your deal.

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Post  nedceifus October 4th 2022, 2:55 pm

Word, I’ve watched that video about 7 times. I’ll defiantly revisit it when I am getting things set up. I’ve got a Rhodes Racecars fabricated housing, factory nodular center section with a 35 spline spool, Rhodes race cars sway bar kit, CalTrac’s & a sticky 295 tire. I have been contemplating motor placement for weight transfer. I’m starting from scratch there. Front shocks are QA1 single adjustable. Rear shocks I have not purchased but I’m leaning toward a good double adjustable. Over time I think I can get it all to work good on the street. I have to limit my expectations to the parts & car I have. Just hope I can catch some guys off guard often enough to make it fun.
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