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Cam Specs. Approve or no?

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rmcomprandy
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Post  1EFF100 September 16th 2022, 8:35 am

Hydraulic flat tappet.
Would go in a 532" street engine. Heavy car. Auto with stall or manual trans.
What's your opinion of this grind? Not necessarily just for the engine here, but the 460 engine in general.

Advertised Duration: 294/312
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift:242
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift:257
Intake Valve Lift:0.531
Exhaust Valve Lift:0.515
Lobe Lift Intake:0.307
Lobe Lift Exhaust:0.298
Lobe Separation:107
Intake Centerline:102
Exhaust Close ATDC:49
Intake Open BTDC:43
Exhaust Open BBDC:84
Intake Close ABDC:71
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Post  rmcomprandy September 16th 2022, 10:49 am

1EFF100 wrote:Hydraulic flat tappet.
Would go in a 532" street engine. Heavy car. Auto with stall or manual trans.
What's your opinion of this grind? Not necessarily just for the engine here, but the 460 engine in general.

Advertised Duration: 294/312
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift:242
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift:257
Intake Valve Lift:0.531
Exhaust Valve Lift:0.515
Lobe Lift Intake:0.307
Lobe Lift Exhaust:0.298
Lobe Separation:107
Intake Centerline:102
Exhaust Close ATDC:49
Intake Open BTDC:43
Exhaust Open BBDC:84
Intake Close ABDC:71

With the limited valve lift it would run really well using stock type heads with an unmodified valve train other than valve springs.

Though, the separation is a bit tight for a 532, it would still surely need a higher stall converter to get a decent idle.

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Post  supervel45 September 16th 2022, 11:24 am

Ol Mother Thumper. I would keep on looking myself. The 107/102 looks good though for a 460 for what you mentioned esp. with a close ratio manual. Take a look at the Lunati catalog, they have a ton of 429/460 cams.

https://www.superformance.com.au/assets/files/Brands/Lunati%20Camshaft%20Catalogue.pdf

At the bottom of actual page 106 and 110 are interesting. More lift but on 110Lsa. The smaller one is on a 104ICL and the other one one a 106ICL but, you can degree then how you like. Many others also and Fords like Lift in my opinion. 10340314 and 10340705.


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Post  Dave De September 16th 2022, 8:51 pm

And the heads are? Compression ratio? Headers or manifolds?
Agreed that the LSA should be 110.
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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 8:00 am

Dave De wrote:And the heads are? Compression ratio? Headers or manifolds?
Agreed that the LSA should be 110.
Scotty J ported big valve D0VEs, 9.7, headers--if I can find some to fit my car, otherwise 460 Police Interceptor manifolds.
Hopefully Stan up in Washington state is still doing business; I haven't checked in a while.
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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 8:39 am

I realize these Thumpr cams get a bad rap as being "poser" cams, but the reason this one caught my eye is the large exhaust duration. I read where Scott Johnston said that the 460 cylinder heads need 12-14 degrees more duration on the exhaust than the intake, stock OR ported. Most shelf cams are 6-10 degrees, when they have any at all.
I agree both on the low lift not being optimum and the LSA is very tight.
What I have noticed with a tight LSA is that the engine seems to accelerate quicker, or so my butt dyno tells me. I could be wrong on that because butt dynos can be wildly inaccurate. Very Happy

Okay, since were talking cams, here's a couple I have. Would either of these work for what I'm looking for here?

Used Crane solid flat tappet. Back in the day, I went through about 4 cams in the same 466 and I settled on this one as I was pretty happy with how it ran.

Advertised Dur.: 282/292
Duration @ .050: 246/256
LSA: 108
Open/Close Int.: 20/46
Open/Close Ex.: 61/15
Lash Int./Ex. .026
Lift: .563/.583

New in box Ford Racing hydraulic flat tappet. M-6250-A443

Advertised Dur.: 300/310
Duration @ .050: 234/244
Int. Lobe centerline: 107
Ex. Lobe centerline: 117
LSA: 112
Open/Close Int.: 10/44
Open/Close Ex.: 59/5
Lift: .562/.588

Valve events are taken at .050 lift.






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Post  Dave De September 17th 2022, 9:08 am

If it was a 460 I would use a similar cam to the Comps 262
https://www.compcams.com/xtreme-energy-218-224-hydraulic-flat-cam-for-ford-429-460.html

If it is 521 or more with exhaust manifolds I would use a similar cam to XE274H
https://www.compcams.com/xtreme-energy-230-236-hydraulic-flat-cam-for-ford-429-460.html

521 or more with headers I would use XE284H
https://www.compcams.com/xtreme-energy-240-246-hydraulic-flat-cam-for-ford-429-460.html

I am not recommending Comps but their grinds are easy to reference. If you use a flat tappet hydraulic cam buy quality lifters (Johnson) from someone like Crower. Their lifters are made in Michigan. Most others are Chinese and not worth the disaster of using.

An Edel Torker II intake will fit well for your hood clearance topped off with a 950CFM carburetor.
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Post  rmcomprandy September 17th 2022, 10:41 am

1EFF100 wrote:I realize these Thumpr cams get a bad rap as being "poser" cams, but the reason this one caught my eye is the large exhaust duration. I read where Scott Johnston said that the 460 cylinder heads need 12-14 degrees more duration on the exhaust than the intake, stock OR ported. Most shelf cams are 6-10 degrees, when they have any at all.


More exhaust duration is usually good for more wide open throttle horsepower and a big detriment for part throttle torque; especially with lower compression ratios.

The actual lobe profile means a whole lot more than what duration differences might show.

The end result of what you are seeking 80% of the running time should make the final decision.

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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 11:53 am

1EFF100 wrote:
Dave De wrote:And the heads are? Compression ratio? Headers or manifolds?
Agreed that the LSA should be 110.
Scotty J ported big valve D0VEs, 9.7, headers--if I can find some to fit my car, otherwise 460 Police Interceptor manifolds.
Hopefully Stan up in Washington state is still doing business; I haven't checked in a while.

What gear are you going to run?

I have had the same experience with the wide LSA stuff with heavy vehicles, hence I would skip that 112LSA Ford cam you showed also in this application. The lash on that Crane mechanical will take some lift and a little bit of duration away compared to the same grind in a hydraulic, something else to remember when comparing cams.

It would be better if we stuck to either 460 or 532 on the cam selection I think, as 72 inches is a pretty big change.

Look at the how close all the numbers on the Extreme Energy 274 and 284 that Dave linked and the Lunati's I listed are. The XE274 is cut on a 106ICL and the small Lunati on a 104ICL. Other wise they are vey similar as far as .050" duration, Lift and LSA. The Comp. XE's have slightly smaller spread on the Exhaust duration, about 3 degree's less. than the Lunati's.

Same on the lifters get a better set then Comp.

It also seems Comp. and Lunati rate their Opening and Closing events at a different lift as very similar cams are way off from the ones I have compared?



Last edited by supervel45 on September 17th 2022, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  69F100 September 17th 2022, 12:53 pm

Get Randy or Lem to build you a custom cam to fit your needs when I was rebuilding my 351w I was going to get a custom cam made but Randy was out of cam stocks. So I went with the comp mother thumper I does good in my 69. I had Randy to build me a custom cam for my 460 in my Ranger I took a XE 274 out and put the custom cam Randy designed me and it made a world of different I got the cam and solid lifters for about $40 over what a over the shelf can and lifters cost
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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 2:12 pm

Howards has a few more on 108-109LSA and good lift if you have not looked. I am not stuck on the 110 stuff either especially with low compression ratios. Kaase for some reason liked the 107 on the P-51 test mules at one time.
At you 9.7-10/1 and iron heads I would start taking detonation into account esp. with smaller cams but, you are in a pretty happy area.

The Dynamic compression calculators are interesting if you can trust the cam specs across the board for accurate valve events, which I don't.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Page 252 starts the 429/460 cams.

https://www.howardscams.com/sites/default/files/Howards2016_17_mid.pdf

Is this a shelf grind comparison thread only? It Matters. Surprised

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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 3:35 pm

1EFF100 wrote:I realize these Thumpr cams get a bad rap as being "poser" cams, but the reason this one caught my eye is the large exhaust duration. I read where Scott Johnston said that the 460 cylinder heads need 12-14 degrees more duration on the exhaust than the intake, stock OR ported. Most shelf cams are 6-10 degrees, when they have any at all.
I agree both on the low lift not being optimum and the LSA is very tight.
What I have noticed with a tight LSA is that the engine seems to accelerate quicker, or so my butt dyno tells me. I could be wrong on that because butt dynos can be wildly inaccurate. Very Happy

Okay, since were talking cams, here's a couple I have. Would either of these work for what I'm looking for here?

Used Crane solid flat tappet. Back in the day, I went through about 4 cams in the same 466 and I settled on this one as I was pretty happy with how it ran.

Advertised Dur.: 282/292
Duration @ .050: 246/256
LSA: 108
Open/Close Int.: 20/46
Open/Close Ex.: 61/15
Lash Int./Ex. .026
Lift: .563/.583

New in box Ford Racing hydraulic flat tappet. M-6250-A443

Advertised Dur.: 300/310
Duration @ .050: 234/244
Int. Lobe centerline: 107
Ex. Lobe centerline: 117
LSA: 112
Open/Close Int.: 10/44
Open/Close Ex.: 59/5
Lift: .562/.588

Valve events are taken at .050 lift.







Did you keep the lifters off the Crane with it and sorted? Not a bad looking grind to try on the 532 esp. if you could get some headers and a decent gear with a close ratio manual. A lot more to be said for seat of the pants feel and time slips, than some internet dyno's in my opinion also. Smile

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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 3:49 pm

Let's keep this thread to shelf grinds and the 532" engine, since that's what I'm currently screwing together.
I only mentioned the 460 previously as I am curious if the consensus on here is the Thumpr cam I posted was junk for my stroker or the 429/460 in general.

I could go custom, and I still may, but let's look at shelf cams first.

Back in the '90s, I was a camshaft changing fiend. I read all I could on them and tried different grinds. I still have a couple Crane Cams catalogues, a couple Comp Cams catalogues and a Ford Racing catalogue.
I'm certainly no expert on the things, far from it, but I do have a basic understanding of lift, duration and LSAs and how they affect the engines nature. Beyond that, it's all Greek to me. Laughing

I should mention that I have had custom cams made from both Scott Johnston and Randy Malik. The one I got from Scott ran awesome with his D0VEs and recurved distributor.
I purchased 2 cams from Randy and unfortunately, one lost a lobe on break-in and the other I never used because the build never materialized.
I would like to mention that the cam that lost a lobe was no fault of Randy or the cam itself; I had a tight lifter and it did not want to spin. That was completely my fault.
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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 4:09 pm

The rear gear ratio and intake selection/hood clearance would be nice to know?

If you looked at the old Crower books you could compare how much more lift and duration they added to their cams for the bigger cubic inch versions of the same make engines to keep the Rpm in the same general range.
I don't have the exact numbers but, from memory it was 7-10 degrees more from 429 to 460.

This car is local to me across town. A buddy of mine tipped me to it when the owner started running it as he gets machine work done there "owners shop".  He got away with a very low profile hood scoop on his Bbf heavy car stroker.

I think it has gone bottom 10's or cracked high 9's not long ago with a small shot of nitrous. Thought you might enjoy the writeup if you have not seen it,, even if it's the next level of your deal, it shows what can be done. Cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Q7SznAomo


https://www.dragzine.com/features/sleeper-alert-the-worlds-quickest-lincoln-continental-mk-iii/


Last edited by supervel45 on September 17th 2022, 8:19 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Add 9 second video.)

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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 5:13 pm

supervel45 wrote:
1EFF100 wrote:I realize these Thumpr cams get a bad rap as being "poser" cams, but the reason this one caught my eye is the large exhaust duration. I read where Scott Johnston said that the 460 cylinder heads need 12-14 degrees more duration on the exhaust than the intake, stock OR ported. Most shelf cams are 6-10 degrees, when they have any at all.
I agree both on the low lift not being optimum and the LSA is very tight.
What I have noticed with a tight LSA is that the engine seems to accelerate quicker, or so my butt dyno tells me. I could be wrong on that because butt dynos can be wildly inaccurate. Very Happy

Okay, since were talking cams, here's a couple I have. Would either of these work for what I'm looking for here?

Used Crane solid flat tappet. Back in the day, I went through about 4 cams in the same 466 and I settled on this one as I was pretty happy with how it ran.

Advertised Dur.: 282/292
Duration @ .050: 246/256
LSA: 108
Open/Close Int.: 20/46
Open/Close Ex.: 61/15
Lash Int./Ex. .026
Lift: .563/.583

New in box Ford Racing hydraulic flat tappet. M-6250-A443

Advertised Dur.: 300/310
Duration @ .050: 234/244
Int. Lobe centerline: 107
Ex. Lobe centerline: 117
LSA: 112
Open/Close Int.: 10/44
Open/Close Ex.: 59/5
Lift: .562/.588

Valve events are taken at .050 lift.







Did you keep the lifters off the Crane with it and sorted? Not a bad looking grind to try on the 532 esp. if you could get some headers and a decent gear with a close ratio manual. A lot more to be said for seat of the pants feel and time slips, than some internet dyno's in my opinion also. Smile
I did for a lot of years, but shelf life wasn't good for them. They eventually got knocked around and I think started to get rusty, so I tossed them.

supervel45 wrote:The rear gear ratio and intake selection/hood clearance would be nice to know?

If you looked at the old Crower books you could compare how much more lift and duration they added to their cams for the bigger cubic inch versions of the same make engines to keep the Rpm in the same general range.
I don't have the exact numbers but, from memory it was 7-10 degrees more from 429 to 460.
Okay, this engine is a performance street engine and I want it to be flexible, not a rowdy top end drag engine, or a small cammed foo foo daily driver. If I want to throw some gears in and go drag racing, it will do it, if I want to drive down the freeway with some 2.79s out back, it will do that too. So understandably, whichever cam ends up in this engine will more than likely be a bit of a compromise. I can live with that.
I have the Ford Racing equivalent of a Performer RPM I was thinking of using but if I have to purchase a Torker II, that's fine. I may end up with a hood scoop on this car, so hood clearance may not be an issue.
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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 5:39 pm

Well if you use the PI exhaust manifolds and 2.79's I would stay on the smaller side of the cam compromise. Sucks your lifters got dinged up shit happens. Someone could put a new set with the Crane if they wanted to mess with it.
Is vacuum even a issue for your brakes?

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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 5:51 pm

I ran that Crane solid in a truck with power brakes and had no problem with vacuum running the booster. I can't imagine I'd have a problem in the car with a stroker.
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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 5:58 pm

The Crane for a mechanical sure looks nice. You did not give the ICL on it, did you run it straight up or advanced if you can remember?

As for as a hydraulic compromise deal I like the Howards Rattler # 248041-09. It's their size down from the Thumper in your first post on a 109/103 with some lift.

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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 6:34 pm

The crazy lift short duration Howards I mentioned that I thought was a tight LSA was#241541-10.
It's .635"/.645" 238/244 adv.285/291 110/106. Seems like that would make for a very fast ramp rate, not sure what to think about that one?

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Post  Mark Miller September 17th 2022, 11:33 pm

1EFF100 wrote:
Dave De wrote:And the heads are? Compression ratio? Headers or manifolds?
Agreed that the LSA should be 110.
Scotty J ported big valve D0VEs, 9.7, headers--if I can find some to fit my car, otherwise 460 Police Interceptor manifolds.
Hopefully Stan up in Washington state is still doing business; I haven't checked in a while.

Is this engine going in what looks like a Cougar in your Avatar?If so the Hooker 6126 IIRC might fit,they worked in my LTDII i had that had a 460 in it!!

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Post  1EFF100 September 17th 2022, 11:51 pm

Mark Miller wrote:
1EFF100 wrote:
Dave De wrote:And the heads are? Compression ratio? Headers or manifolds?
Agreed that the LSA should be 110.
Scotty J ported big valve D0VEs, 9.7, headers--if I can find some to fit my car, otherwise 460 Police Interceptor manifolds.
Hopefully Stan up in Washington state is still doing business; I haven't checked in a while.

Is this engine going in what looks like a Cougar in your Avatar?If so the Hooker 6126 IIRC might fit,they worked in my LTDII i had that had a 460 in it!!
Yes, that's the car. What year was your LTD?
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Post  1EFF100 September 18th 2022, 7:50 am

supervel45 wrote:The Crane for a mechanical sure looks nice. You did not give the ICL on it, did you run it straight up or advanced if you can remember?

As for as a hydraulic compromise deal I like the Howards Rattler # 248041-09. It's their size down from the Thumper in your first post on a 109/103 with some lift.
I don't know what the ICL is, or don't remember.
I ran it advanced, whatever the advance was on the 3-position double roller I used. 2 or 4 degrees?
The truck came out of the hole like it was shot out of a cannon but gave up early on top. My best times were shifting at 5200 RPM.
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Post  supervel45 September 18th 2022, 8:28 am

1EFF100 wrote:
supervel45 wrote:The Crane for a mechanical sure looks nice. You did not give the ICL on it, did you run it straight up or advanced if you can remember?

As for as a hydraulic compromise deal I like the Howards Rattler # 248041-09. It's their size down from the Thumper in your first post on a 109/103 with some lift.
I don't know what the ICL is, or don't remember.
I ran it advanced, whatever the advance was on the 3-position double roller I used. 2 or 4 degrees?
The truck came out of the hole like it was shot out of a cannon but gave up early on top. My best times were shifting at 5200 RPM.

It's usually 4 degrees on the 3 way chain sets. Seems like the most old Crane cams were cut straight up.
I did a thread on the Comp High Energy and Magnum three position gears awhile back with pictures, when I was degreeing my 429 cam. I can't find it though. I had both Comp Timing sets.

Be careful and make sure the 0 is in line with the tooth and keyway on some of these 3 way sets at what looks to be 0 setting.

Here is another thread on the deal.

https://www.429-460.com/t27248-timing-set-oddities-comp-2130-and-3130

As you know if the Crane was straight up at 108/108lsa/ICL the 4 degree advance would make it a 104 ICL, just putting this up for others that are new to the sport/cams and what not.

Maybe it was running out of fuel pump or something else holding it back.

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Post  1EFF100 September 18th 2022, 9:13 am

I was only running a 750 double pumper and stock fuel pump. It's possible it was going lean.

On another note, just ordered a set of Hooker Super Comp headers. Says they fit '72-'74 Torino/Ranchero/Montego/Cyclone, which is the same as my '74 Cougar.

https://www.holley.com/products/exhaust/headers_and_exhaust_manifolds/long_tube/parts/6126HKR
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Post  supervel45 September 18th 2022, 9:48 am

You peaked my interest on that Crane you have. The old Lunati Cam Card Library is gone, I guess Holley Scraped it. I wanted to see what Crane had Left on the Electric paper for anything.

Your Cam is on actual page 256. F-246/3294-2-8

https://www.cranecams.com.au/pdfs/2013-master-catalog-v2B.pdf

The Lobes are on actual page 17 under F1 as F-246 and F-256.


http://enginebuilderprofessional.com/CraneCamsLobes.pdf

I would hang onto that cam.

Great deal on your headers. Cool

Looks like they doubled the price on the Super Comps since I bought a set but, it's been a long time. Glad I found a deal on my Sandersen CJ port shortys when I did.

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