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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  Landship_Captain September 21st 2022, 1:51 am

I really want to build a transmission for my truck and I really like the idea of having overdrive and a locking torque converter in there with a controller I can play around with (extra nice in the winter where I don't have to leave the truck to fiddle with it). I want to get rid of my NP203 so I believe I would have to alter or replace the driveshafts anyway, I want to redo my exhaust too otherwise, my C6 is holding up ok (fluid is nice looking but it doesn't seem to shift that firmly). So far all I have is an e4od I got for $100 and a used reverse hub in good condition, so if there is a much better option it won't be much sunk cost.

Most of the information I can find on upgrades seems to be oriented towards diesels and isn't real clear on current clutch options... So I would really appreciate any help. I'm trying to keep the cost below $3000 for everything but I've budgeted for it to go over all said and done (as much as my cheap-bastardness hates that).

To me, it looks like a Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit is a must, a transgo fix kit, it sounds like I should get a "bearing style center support", possibly a billet input shaft (or is that more of a diesel thing?) and spiral snap rings in addition to a rebuild kit (assuming the kit doesn't have any of that). I was looking at some rebuild kits and both this plainish rebuild/upgrade kit and this one with different clutches look filled out but I'm really not sure if that would be all I would need or if the red eagle clutches are really that good or bad.

A lot of the opinions I have found say Borg Warner high energy clutches are much better than the alto red eagle clutches but I can't for the life of me find any for an e4od. Other than that some people seem to insist that the red eagle clutches and kolene steels are worse than OEM style ones but others say they are good for performance setups. Unfortunately, most of those people only claim to have experience with GM transmissions either way, so I have been a bit paralyzed about what rebuild kit to get... I'm also not sure if a junkyard, rebuilt or brand new solenoid pack would be the better choice.

So, what am I missing that wouldn't be in those kits and whatnot? Or are there much better kits out there?

For the controller I was going to go with a quick 4, grab a late 90s mlps from a junkyard, then use an oscilloscope and drill to see if I can get a clean enough signal from my cruise control sensor to use it as a VSS, and if not just make one or get an aftermarket gear driven one for the quick 4.

As for the e4od I got, I think it's from a 94 f250 4x4 with a 460 that had a downright destroyed reverse clutch pack and hub (was in a plow truck, hub teeth were ground down, clutches had no clutch material and steels were worn bad). It seems to be in almost bizarrely good condition otherwise, the overdrive parts seem downright untouched. Now I'm wondering what I need to do to make it live behind my 460. It has the 4 planet hubs and came with a seemingly stock converter but nothing else stood out.

As for the converter I was leaning towards a Hughes 46-25L (2500rpm stall speed) because I have been fairly happy with the 43-25HD on my C6 (not sure if it's as strong though). It does look like there are a lot more people rebuilding and modifying the stock converters though, so if that's a better option that would be good to know.

I did get really curious about what was in the solenoid pack and dismantled it though and I'm glad I did! It had ohmed out and functioned fine but it turned out there was a third of a check ball in one of the solenoids... I'm half tempted to put it back together just to say I rebuilt it myself. All the solenoids check out electrically, the insulation on the windings looks good and they function fine but, I'm not sure if it's worth it just for bragging rights (so tempting though).


     For reference, the truck is a 1979 f150 4x4 standard cab, long bed on 35x12.5r15s with a 460, stock crank, forged rods, flat top pistons, AFR 280 heads, a custom HFT cam (.564" lift and 227 duration at 0.050" intake and 0.567" lift and 233 duration at 0.050", "power range" 2200-6600rpm), holley sniper stealth EFI, Edelbrock performer RPM airgap, jomar power cone spacer, and headers with dual 2.5" exhaust. I haven't had it dynoed but I have blown up one NP203 with a part time kit in it it by doing a four wheel drive burnout on dry pavement in low range (thrust bearing from part time kit exploded and the blocks that replaced the differential gears partially broke off at the corners), if that matters...

I will probably try to get a bw1356 but I'm tempted to try to make a NP205 (maybe wont explode) or even NP208 (much lighter and easier to pull if it explodes) work in there. I had mated the blown up np203 to it and it actually looks like it would fit perfectly with no driveshaft clearance issues but, well, I'm not sure if my last one exploding was a fluke or a real flaw in those part time kits. I think the the np203 is also so long that I would have to move the side gas tank back a few inches for it to fit behind the longer E4OD.

The most I push the truck is doing burnouts, pulling people out of ditches in the snow, or accelerating hard (to 80 at most), I would like to drive it more often but it gets a whopping 8mpg on my commute to work (somehow gets 14 if I cruise around at 40 on rural back-roads). I figure, if I can't get any help here, I will go for a mild rebuild then if it blows up I will have already done all the other work to fit it into the truck and get the controller working.

Landship_Captain

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  supervel45 September 21st 2022, 3:48 pm

What's the new/old saying Cliff notes Please. It looks like about 7-10 questions rolled into a book.

Just giving you a hard time man, it was well typed out and all, just too compressed.

You did not include your axle gear ratio's either. I think that they should be considered also.

I did see your questions and links most of them anyway. Could you list them in a numerical order as in 1234ect order, spaced for easier reading, and addressing please?

Thanks

supervel45

Posts : 3337
Join date : 2013-09-04

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  supervel45 September 21st 2022, 5:46 pm

Landship_Captain wrote:I really want to build a transmission for my truck and I really like the idea of having overdrive and a locking torque converter in there with a controller I can play around with (extra nice in the winter where I don't have to leave the truck to fiddle with it). I want to get rid of my NP203 so I believe I would have to alter or replace the driveshafts anyway, I want to redo my exhaust too otherwise, my C6 is holding up ok (fluid is nice looking but it doesn't seem to shift that firmly). So far all I have is an e4od I got for $100 and a used reverse hub in good condition, so if there is a much better option it won't be much sunk cost.

Most of the information I can find on upgrades seems to be oriented towards diesels and isn't real clear on current clutch options... So I would really appreciate any help. I'm trying to keep the cost below $3000 for everything but I've budgeted for it to go over all said and done (as much as my cheap-bastardness hates that).

To me, it looks like a Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit is a must, a transgo fix kit, it sounds like I should get a "bearing style center support", possibly a billet input shaft (or is that more of a diesel thing?) and spiral snap rings in addition to a rebuild kit (assuming the kit doesn't have any of that). I was looking at some rebuild kits and both this plainish rebuild/upgrade kit and this one with different clutches look filled out but I'm really not sure if that would be all I would need or if the red eagle clutches are really that good or bad.

A lot of the opinions I have found say Borg Warner high energy clutches are much better than the alto red eagle clutches but I can't for the life of me find any for an e4od. Other than that some people seem to insist that the red eagle clutches and kolene steels are worse than OEM style ones but others say they are good for performance setups. Unfortunately, most of those people only claim to have experience with GM transmissions either way, so I have been a bit paralyzed about what rebuild kit to get... I'm also not sure if a junkyard, rebuilt or brand new solenoid pack would be the better choice.

So, what am I missing that wouldn't be in those kits and whatnot? Or are there much better kits out there?

For the controller I was going to go with a quick 4, grab a late 90s mlps from a junkyard, then use an oscilloscope and drill to see if I can get a clean enough signal from my cruise control sensor to use it as a VSS, and if not just make one or get an aftermarket gear driven one for the quick 4.

As for the e4od I got, I think it's from a 94 f250 4x4 with a 460 that had a downright destroyed reverse clutch pack and hub (was in a plow truck, hub teeth were ground down, clutches had no clutch material and steels were worn bad). It seems to be in almost bizarrely good condition otherwise, the overdrive parts seem downright untouched. Now I'm wondering what I need to do to make it live behind my 460. It has the 4 planet hubs and came with a seemingly stock converter but nothing else stood out.

As for the converter I was leaning towards a Hughes 46-25L (2500rpm stall speed) because I have been fairly happy with the 43-25HD on my C6 (not sure if it's as strong though). It does look like there are a lot more people rebuilding and modifying the stock converters though, so if that's a better option that would be good to know.

I did get really curious about what was in the solenoid pack and dismantled it though and I'm glad I did! It had ohmed out and functioned fine but it turned out there was a third of a check ball in one of the solenoids... I'm half tempted to put it back together just to say I rebuilt it myself. All the solenoids check out electrically, the insulation on the windings looks good and they function fine but, I'm not sure if it's worth it just for bragging rights (so tempting though).


     For reference, the truck is a 1979 f150 4x4 standard cab, long bed on 35x12.5r15s with a 460, stock crank, forged rods, flat top pistons, AFR 280 heads, a custom HFT cam (.564" lift and 227 duration at 0.050" intake and 0.567" lift and 233 duration at 0.050", "power range" 2200-6600rpm), holley sniper stealth EFI, Edelbrock performer RPM airgap, jomar power cone spacer, and headers with dual 2.5" exhaust. I haven't had it dynoed but I have blown up one NP203 with a part time kit in it it by doing a four wheel drive burnout on dry pavement in low range (thrust bearing from part time kit exploded and the blocks that replaced the differential gears partially broke off at the corners), if that matters...

I will probably try to get a bw1356 but I'm tempted to try to make a NP205 (maybe wont explode) or even NP208 (much lighter and easier to pull if it explodes) work in there. I had mated the blown up np203 to it and it actually looks like it would fit perfectly with no driveshaft clearance issues but, well, I'm not sure if my last one exploding was a fluke or a real flaw in those part time kits. I think the the np203 is also so long that I would have to move the side gas tank back a few inches for it to fit behind the longer E4OD.

The most I push the truck is doing burnouts, pulling people out of ditches in the snow, or accelerating hard (to 80 at most), I would like to drive it more often but it gets a whopping 8mpg on my commute to work (somehow gets 14 if I cruise around at 40 on rural back-roads). I figure, if I can't get any help here, I will go for a mild rebuild then if it blows up I will have already done all the other work to fit it into the truck and get the controller working.

$3,000/$4.00=750 gallons. 750 gallons X 10MPG=7,500 Miles

750 gallons X 8MPG= 6,000 Miles

How much do you plan to drive it a year? You can buy a lot of gas for the budget of the OD transmission swap. I doubt you will get 12-14MPG at highway speeds of 65 to 70 Mph with 35's on a 4X4. If you gearing is too high it could even get worse.




supervel45

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  Landship_Captain September 21st 2022, 9:32 pm

supervel45 wrote:What's the new/old saying Cliff notes Please. It looks like about 7-10 questions rolled into a book.

Just giving you a hard time man, it was well typed out and all, just too compressed.

You did not include your axle gear ratio's either. I think that they should be considered also.

I did see your questions and links most of them anyway. Could you list them in a numerical order as in 1234ect order, spaced for easier reading, and addressing please?

Thanks

Whaaaat, you mean you didn't want a crazy essay that vaguely indicates how indecisive I am and sneaks in questions?

Yeah, sorry about that...


The axles have 4.11:1 gears with open differentials, front is a dana 44 and rear is a 9". I do plan to get a limited slip in the rear end eventually (like a detroit tru-trac).

Questions:

  
  1. Does much of the info from building a diesel oriented E4od apply to one behind a 460 like mine?

  2. Is a billet input shaft for an e4od more of a diesel thing or general recommended upgrade?

  3. Are Alto red eagle clutches and Kolene steels better or worse than more standard or OEM frictions and steels for my application?
     
  4. Can you even get Borg Warner "high energy" clutches for an e4od these days?

  5. Are the e4od rebuild kits from "[url=transpartswarehouse.com]transpartswarehouse.com[/url]" any good looking or would it be best to go with another supplier?   
       For reference: Alto red eagle based kit link and more basic looking kit link

  6. Would it be best to go with a new converter like the Hughes Performance 46-25L (link) or use the one I have as a core and get a rebuilt/modified one?
       
  7. Should I even consider putting the solenoid pack I tore apart back together just so I can say I did it or, just get a used/remanufactured/brand new solenoid pack? If option 2: is a supposedly new one worth it over a reman or is the quality usually more iffy?

  8. Would it just be a much better Idea to do something else entirely? Like say, try to swap over to a 5 speed manual, use the 4 pinion plentarys to upgrade a C6, lighten the truck with flared fiberglass fenders then lower it back to stock height (currently has 4ish inch lift), get a gear vendors overdrive, shove a backwards t-case or something behind the main one just for 2x4 cruising,  etc.


As for what I'm currently looking at putting into the transmission, anything missing or look bad?
   
  1. I like the look of the Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit (link)

  2. It looks like this Transgo "fix kit" would be a must (link)

  3. Probably a "Bearing style center support kit" (link)

  4. Maybe a billet input shaft (link)

  5. One of the kits I mentioned earlier (Alto red eagle based kit (link) and more basic looking kit (link)

  6. A Hughes "2500 rpm stall speed" torque converter with lockup 46-25L

  7. A quick 4 stand alone transmission controller (link)

  8. Assorted parts for the swap itself to be determined.


Hopefully that's much less incoherent and rambly without missing much.


supervel45 wrote:

$3,000/$4.00=750 gallons. 750 gallons X 10MPG=7,500 Miles

                                        750 gallons X 8MPG= 6,000 Miles

How much do you plan to drive it a year? You can buy a lot of gas for the budget of the OD transmission swap. I doubt you will get 12-14MPG at highway speeds of 65 to 70 Mph with 35's on a 4X4. If you gearing is too high it could even get worse.




That is a good way of looking at it!

With my current 4.11 gears and torque converter the engine spins at about 2,800 to 3,100rpm going about 70mph depending on the slope of the road. I don't love this but maybe I'm just too used to cruising at 1,500-2,000rpm? I do wonder if just getting rid of the NP203 might help, I only gained about .5mpg going from putting in a part time kit.

I think even in my daily driver I only do around 6,000-8,000 miles per year, it isn't much better on my commute though. Somehow I get 13-14mpg in it (a 1995 f150 with 351w) yet it gets 18-20mpg pure highway at 65-70mph (I really think there has to be something wrong with it). My drive to work and back is only about 20 miles round trip with a mix of town and highway. I would love to drive my 79 f150 more but, the highway RPM and combined mileage make me hesitant to do so and well... I always end up wanting to work on it more than drive it. I figured if I got the 79 nice enough I would rebuild the 351 in the 95 or something like that.

One consideration is that I live in an area 45-60 miles from anywhere to really do much with it (offroading in one direction, city/nice roads in the other). This makes me hate the cruising RPM and mileage even more... It also has a 10.6:1 compression ratio (9.2ish dynamic) and needs to run premium.

Another consideration is that I would just plain like to rebuild an automatic transmission at some point. The c6 shifts much less firm than when I got the truck and I have really liked the behavior of the e4od in my 95 (Don't think it's stock and the records indicate the chassis has over 600,000 miles on it though).

Landship_Captain

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Post  supervel45 September 21st 2022, 10:29 pm

Landship_Captain wrote:
supervel45 wrote:What's the new/old saying Cliff notes Please. It looks like about 7-10 questions rolled into a book.

Just giving you a hard time man, it was well typed out and all, just too compressed.

You did not include your axle gear ratio's either. I think that they should be considered also.

I did see your questions and links most of them anyway. Could you list them in a numerical order as in 1234ect order, spaced for easier reading, and addressing please?

Thanks

Whaaaat, you mean you didn't want a crazy essay that vaguely indicates how indecisive I am and sneaks in questions?

Yeah, sorry about that...


The axles have 4.11:1 gears with open differentials, front is a dana 44 and rear is a 9". I do plan to get a limited slip in the rear end eventually (like a detroit tru-trac).

Questions:

  
  1. Does much of the info from building a diesel oriented E4od apply to one behind a 460 like mine?

  2. Is a billet input shaft for an e4od more of a diesel thing or general recommended upgrade?

  3. Are Alto red eagle clutches and Kolene steels better or worse than more standard or OEM frictions and steels for my application?
     
  4. Can you even get Borg Warner "high energy" clutches for an e4od these days?

  5. Are the e4od rebuild kits from "[url=transpartswarehouse.com]transpartswarehouse.com[/url]" any good looking or would it be best to go with another supplier?   
       For reference: Alto red eagle based kit link and more basic looking kit link

  6. Would it be best to go with a new converter like the Hughes Performance 46-25L (link) or use the one I have as a core and get a rebuilt/modified one?
       
  7. Should I even consider putting the solenoid pack I tore apart back together just so I can say I did it or, just get a used/remanufactured/brand new solenoid pack? If option 2: is a supposedly new one worth it over a reman or is the quality usually more iffy?

  8. Would it just be a much better Idea to do something else entirely? Like say, try to swap over to a 5 speed manual, use the 4 pinion plentarys to upgrade a C6, lighten the truck with flared fiberglass fenders then lower it back to stock height (currently has 4ish inch lift), get a gear vendors overdrive, shove a backwards t-case or something behind the main one just for 2x4 cruising,  etc.


As for what I'm currently looking at putting into the transmission, anything missing or look bad?
   
  1. I like the look of the Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit (link)

  2. It looks like this Transgo "fix kit" would be a must (link)

  3. Probably a "Bearing style center support kit" (link)

  4. Maybe a billet input shaft (link)

  5. One of the kits I mentioned earlier (Alto red eagle based kit (link) and more basic looking kit (link)

  6. A Hughes "2500 rpm stall speed" torque converter with lockup 46-25L

  7. A quick 4 stand alone transmission controller (link)

  8. Assorted parts for the swap itself to be determined.


Hopefully that's much less incoherent and rambly without missing much.


supervel45 wrote:

$3,000/$4.00=750 gallons. 750 gallons X 10MPG=7,500 Miles

                                        750 gallons X 8MPG= 6,000 Miles

How much do you plan to drive it a year? You can buy a lot of gas for the budget of the OD transmission swap. I doubt you will get 12-14MPG at highway speeds of 65 to 70 Mph with 35's on a 4X4. If you gearing is too high it could even get worse.




That is a good way of looking at it!

With my current 4.11 gears and torque converter the engine spins at about 2,800 to 3,100rpm going about 70mph depending on the slope of the road. I don't love this but maybe I'm just too used to cruising at 1,500-2,000rpm? I do wonder if just getting rid of the NP203 might help, I only gained about .5mpg going from putting in a part time kit.

I think even in my daily driver I only do around 6,000-8,000 miles per year, it isn't much better on my commute though. Somehow I get 13-14mpg in it (a 1995 f150 with 351w) yet it gets 18-20mpg pure highway at 65-70mph (I really think there has to be something wrong with it). My drive to work and back is only about 20 miles round trip with a mix of town and highway. I would love to drive my 79 f150 more but, the highway RPM and combined mileage make me hesitant to do so and well... I always end up wanting to work on it more than drive it. I figured if I got the 79 nice enough I would rebuild the 351 in the 95 or something like that.

One consideration is that I live in an area 45-60 miles from anywhere to really do much with it (offroading in one direction, city/nice roads in the other). This makes me hate the cruising RPM and mileage even more... It also has a 10.6:1 compression ratio (9.2ish dynamic) and needs to run premium.

Another consideration is that I would just plain like to rebuild an automatic transmission at some point. The c6 shifts much less firm than when I got the truck and I have really liked the behavior of the e4od in my 95 (Don't think it's stock and the records indicate the chassis has over 600,000 miles on it though).


I asked for it OLboy. If I was an English Teacher You'd get an A+.

I am not going to answer all your questions on the E4OD as I am more of a C6 guy. I will try to point you in the right direction on some of them.

1.The things that make the transmission strong would apply to Gas Engines for hard parts, clutchs and bands and torque convertors.

2. I would likely skip the billet input shaft at your power level and usage.

3. I will say likely. For almost $400.00 dollars more between the kits you listed, if that is the only difference I would skip them.

4.I don't know.

5. Don't Know.

6. I would keep your C6 convertor if it is a Hugh's if the rebuilder won't give you a higher then stock core refund.
How much is the rebuilder going to charge for the E40D rebuild and what is he going to put in it compared to the Hugh's?

7.I would get a new solenoid pack and maybe a new wiring harness. Remember all the stuff Cooked in transmission fluid snow plowing and is Old. I am a tightwad sometimes but, that is not the place to scrimp.
If you read enough on these E40D's you will see were if a Air Bag Module goes bad it can cause transmission damage. I was glad my 1995 5.0 F150 had a 4R70W when the speedodmeter went out due to the ABM, LoL.
What I am saying is I would not risk it being a problem down the road.

8. That's Five Questions. pale
Yes a manual transmission generally improves gas mileage.
I don't think your HP and said use will require 4 pinion planetaries.
The lower the truck is the better the mileage will be but I would skip all that.
Gear vendors will not get you a lockup convertor so I would skip that with you 2,500 stall speed.
I would skip the T-Case mess also.

I will do a Part II on the other stuff in a little while.

Yes you 5.8 is broken and if it gets 18 to 20MPG on the highway you should trade it to me for a 5.0.LoL

supervel45

Posts : 3337
Join date : 2013-09-04

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  supervel45 September 21st 2022, 11:44 pm

Landship_Captain wrote:
supervel45 wrote:What's the new/old saying Cliff notes Please. It looks like about 7-10 questions rolled into a book.

Just giving you a hard time man, it was well typed out and all, just too compressed.

You did not include your axle gear ratio's either. I think that they should be considered also.

I did see your questions and links most of them anyway. Could you list them in a numerical order as in 1234ect order, spaced for easier reading, and addressing please?

Thanks

Whaaaat, you mean you didn't want a crazy essay that vaguely indicates how indecisive I am and sneaks in questions?

Yeah, sorry about that...


The axles have 4.11:1 gears with open differentials, front is a dana 44 and rear is a 9". I do plan to get a limited slip in the rear end eventually (like a detroit tru-trac).

Questions:

  
  1. Does much of the info from building a diesel oriented E4od apply to one behind a 460 like mine?

  2. Is a billet input shaft for an e4od more of a diesel thing or general recommended upgrade?

  3. Are Alto red eagle clutches and Kolene steels better or worse than more standard or OEM frictions and steels for my application?
     
  4. Can you even get Borg Warner "high energy" clutches for an e4od these days?

  5. Are the e4od rebuild kits from "[url=transpartswarehouse.com]transpartswarehouse.com[/url]" any good looking or would it be best to go with another supplier?   
       For reference: Alto red eagle based kit link and more basic looking kit link

  6. Would it be best to go with a new converter like the Hughes Performance 46-25L (link) or use the one I have as a core and get a rebuilt/modified one?
       
  7. Should I even consider putting the solenoid pack I tore apart back together just so I can say I did it or, just get a used/remanufactured/brand new solenoid pack? If option 2: is a supposedly new one worth it over a reman or is the quality usually more iffy?

  8. Would it just be a much better Idea to do something else entirely? Like say, try to swap over to a 5 speed manual, use the 4 pinion plentarys to upgrade a C6, lighten the truck with flared fiberglass fenders then lower it back to stock height (currently has 4ish inch lift), get a gear vendors overdrive, shove a backwards t-case or something behind the main one just for 2x4 cruising,  etc.


As for what I'm currently looking at putting into the transmission, anything missing or look bad?
   
  1. I like the look of the Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit (link)

  2. It looks like this Transgo "fix kit" would be a must (link)

  3. Probably a "Bearing style center support kit" (link)

  4. Maybe a billet input shaft (link)

  5. One of the kits I mentioned earlier (Alto red eagle based kit (link) and more basic looking kit (link)

  6. A Hughes "2500 rpm stall speed" torque converter with lockup 46-25L

  7. A quick 4 stand alone transmission controller (link)

  8. Assorted parts for the swap itself to be determined.


Hopefully that's much less incoherent and rambly without missing much.


supervel45 wrote:

$3,000/$4.00=750 gallons. 750 gallons X 10MPG=7,500 Miles

                                        750 gallons X 8MPG= 6,000 Miles

How much do you plan to drive it a year? You can buy a lot of gas for the budget of the OD transmission swap. I doubt you will get 12-14MPG at highway speeds of 65 to 70 Mph with 35's on a 4X4. If you gearing is too high it could even get worse.




That is a good way of looking at it!

With my current 4.11 gears and torque converter the engine spins at about 2,800 to 3,100rpm going about 70mph depending on the slope of the road. I don't love this but maybe I'm just too used to cruising at 1,500-2,000rpm? I do wonder if just getting rid of the NP203 might help, I only gained about .5mpg going from putting in a part time kit.

I think even in my daily driver I only do around 6,000-8,000 miles per year, it isn't much better on my commute though. Somehow I get 13-14mpg in it (a 1995 f150 with 351w) yet it gets 18-20mpg pure highway at 65-70mph (I really think there has to be something wrong with it). My drive to work and back is only about 20 miles round trip with a mix of town and highway. I would love to drive my 79 f150 more but, the highway RPM and combined mileage make me hesitant to do so and well... I always end up wanting to work on it more than drive it. I figured if I got the 79 nice enough I would rebuild the 351 in the 95 or something like that.

One consideration is that I live in an area 45-60 miles from anywhere to really do much with it (offroading in one direction, city/nice roads in the other). This makes me hate the cruising RPM and mileage even more... It also has a 10.6:1 compression ratio (9.2ish dynamic) and needs to run premium.

Another consideration is that I would just plain like to rebuild an automatic transmission at some point. The c6 shifts much less firm than when I got the truck and I have really liked the behavior of the e4od in my 95 (Don't think it's stock and the records indicate the chassis has over 600,000 miles on it though).

I am going to break this down into Three Parts


PART II

1. I would give that Transgo kit a shot on the E4OD.
I put a Trango 67-1&2 kit in a C-6 last year in stage 2 because I wanted full manual downshift/upshift control. Yes it still has Automatic Function but, can hold 1st and 2nd to any Rpm. I was happy with it. If you stay with your C-6 I would recommend you try it. Also on the C-6 check your band adjustment. Might play with your modulator adjustment also.

2. I would call Transgo on this. If you go with the first kit you probably don't need this one.

3. You may not need it but for the money I would do it anyway, here's why. You said you would like to rebuild a transmission to learn how I believe, If you don't end up using it and go to sell it, may help recover some of the cost?

4. Again skip it, don't think you need it. Unlike item 3. if you sell the transmission the new owner can slip one in without opening the trans.

5. Again, maybe if you can find a better deal on the Alto's. I think they are better but, you are not going to be racing or heavy off roading and could put the money to better use like Lockers or a Wench or Gas ect.

6. Lota Money for a 2,500 RPM Torque Convertor. I would shop around.

7. Don't Know. The add sounds nice.
Another thing, can you still use the Tow/Haul/Overdrive feature with these on the fly, like the factory button on the gear select lever?
I find that feature very nice on the factory trucks.

8.Yes They Will.
And it may suck if you need stuff far from town. If they don't have a transmission parts store and a well stocked junkyard of older trucks, have fun.

.71 is the E40D OD ratio. Run your gears on the calculator below. 71MPH is 2,000RPM. Little bit below your cam's operating range. Something to consider. 90MPH gets you there though. OD Button Could Help or unlock through the controller on the fly I guess?

http://www.wallaceracing.com/gear-speed.php

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Post  Landship_Captain September 22nd 2022, 12:44 am

supervel45 wrote:
I asked for it OLboy. If I was an English Teacher You'd get an A+.

I am not going to answer all your questions on the E4OD as I am more of a C6 guy. I will try to point you in the right direction on some of them.

1.The things that make the transmission strong would apply to Gas Engines for hard parts, clutchs and bands and torque convertors.

2. I would likely skip the billet input shaft at your power level and usage.

3. I will say likely. For almost $400.00 dollars more between the kits you listed, if that is the only difference I would skip them.

4.I don't know.

5. Don't Know.

6. I would keep your C6 convertor if it is a Hugh's if the rebuilder won't give you a higher then stock core refund.
How much is the rebuilder going to charge for the E40D rebuild and what is he going to put in it compared to the Hugh's?

7.I would get a new solenoid pack and maybe a new wiring harness. Remember all the stuff Cooked in transmission fluid snow plowing and is Old. I am a tightwad sometimes but, that is not the place to scrimp.
If you read enough on these E40D's you will see were if a Air Bag Module goes bad it can cause transmission damage. I was glad my 1995 5.0 F150 had a 4R70W when the speedodmeter went out due to the ABM, LoL.
What I am saying is I would not risk it being a problem down the road.

8. That's Five Questions. pale
Yes a manual transmission generally improves gas mileage.
I don't think your HP and said use will require 4 pinion planetaries.
The lower the truck is the better the mileage will be but I would skip all that.
Gear vendors will not get you a lockup convertor so I would skip that with you 2,500 stall speed.
I would skip the T-Case mess also.

I will do a Part II on the other stuff in a little while.

Yes you 5.8 is broken and if it gets 18 to 20MPG on the highway you should trade it to me for a 5.0.LoL

I really appreciate the help! I really needed a clearer direction for this, now I have more to chew on.


On 6, just to clarify a bit more, I would have used the stock Ford converter that came with the e4od. It's a bit of a moot point now though, turns out that was only really for low stall converters for diesels and whatnot. Their language is also a bit strange, I believe this was the thing I was seeing recommended on random diesel forums. Not sure what it is about the way that description is written but... it just rubs me the wrong way.

I guess that's what happens when you have a sea of random tabs and windows open. Took me a while just to make sure I hadn't dreamed that stock converter rebuilding was a thing.

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Post  supervel45 September 22nd 2022, 12:47 am

supervel45 wrote:
Landship_Captain wrote:
supervel45 wrote:What's the new/old saying Cliff notes Please. It looks like about 7-10 questions rolled into a book.

Just giving you a hard time man, it was well typed out and all, just too compressed.

You did not include your axle gear ratio's either. I think that they should be considered also.

I did see your questions and links most of them anyway. Could you list them in a numerical order as in 1234ect order, spaced for easier reading, and addressing please?

Thanks

Whaaaat, you mean you didn't want a crazy essay that vaguely indicates how indecisive I am and sneaks in questions?

Yeah, sorry about that...


The axles have 4.11:1 gears with open differentials, front is a dana 44 and rear is a 9". I do plan to get a limited slip in the rear end eventually (like a detroit tru-trac).

Questions:

  
  1. Does much of the info from building a diesel oriented E4od apply to one behind a 460 like mine?

  2. Is a billet input shaft for an e4od more of a diesel thing or general recommended upgrade?

  3. Are Alto red eagle clutches and Kolene steels better or worse than more standard or OEM frictions and steels for my application?
     
  4. Can you even get Borg Warner "high energy" clutches for an e4od these days?

  5. Are the e4od rebuild kits from "[url=transpartswarehouse.com]transpartswarehouse.com[/url]" any good looking or would it be best to go with another supplier?   
       For reference: Alto red eagle based kit link and more basic looking kit link

  6. Would it be best to go with a new converter like the Hughes Performance 46-25L (link) or use the one I have as a core and get a rebuilt/modified one?
       
  7. Should I even consider putting the solenoid pack I tore apart back together just so I can say I did it or, just get a used/remanufactured/brand new solenoid pack? If option 2: is a supposedly new one worth it over a reman or is the quality usually more iffy?

  8. Would it just be a much better Idea to do something else entirely? Like say, try to swap over to a 5 speed manual, use the 4 pinion plentarys to upgrade a C6, lighten the truck with flared fiberglass fenders then lower it back to stock height (currently has 4ish inch lift), get a gear vendors overdrive, shove a backwards t-case or something behind the main one just for 2x4 cruising,  etc.


As for what I'm currently looking at putting into the transmission, anything missing or look bad?
   
  1. I like the look of the Transgo E4OD-HD2 kit (link)

  2. It looks like this Transgo "fix kit" would be a must (link)

  3. Probably a "Bearing style center support kit" (link)

  4. Maybe a billet input shaft (link)

  5. One of the kits I mentioned earlier (Alto red eagle based kit (link) and more basic looking kit (link)

  6. A Hughes "2500 rpm stall speed" torque converter with lockup 46-25L

  7. A quick 4 stand alone transmission controller (link)

  8. Assorted parts for the swap itself to be determined.


Hopefully that's much less incoherent and rambly without missing much.


supervel45 wrote:

$3,000/$4.00=750 gallons. 750 gallons X 10MPG=7,500 Miles

                                        750 gallons X 8MPG= 6,000 Miles

How much do you plan to drive it a year? You can buy a lot of gas for the budget of the OD transmission swap. I doubt you will get 12-14MPG at highway speeds of 65 to 70 Mph with 35's on a 4X4. If you gearing is too high it could even get worse.




That is a good way of looking at it!

With my current 4.11 gears and torque converter the engine spins at about 2,800 to 3,100rpm going about 70mph depending on the slope of the road. I don't love this but maybe I'm just too used to cruising at 1,500-2,000rpm? I do wonder if just getting rid of the NP203 might help, I only gained about .5mpg going from putting in a part time kit.

I think even in my daily driver I only do around 6,000-8,000 miles per year, it isn't much better on my commute though. Somehow I get 13-14mpg in it (a 1995 f150 with 351w) yet it gets 18-20mpg pure highway at 65-70mph (I really think there has to be something wrong with it). My drive to work and back is only about 20 miles round trip with a mix of town and highway. I would love to drive my 79 f150 more but, the highway RPM and combined mileage make me hesitant to do so and well... I always end up wanting to work on it more than drive it. I figured if I got the 79 nice enough I would rebuild the 351 in the 95 or something like that.

One consideration is that I live in an area 45-60 miles from anywhere to really do much with it (offroading in one direction, city/nice roads in the other). This makes me hate the cruising RPM and mileage even more... It also has a 10.6:1 compression ratio (9.2ish dynamic) and needs to run premium.

Another consideration is that I would just plain like to rebuild an automatic transmission at some point. The c6 shifts much less firm than when I got the truck and I have really liked the behavior of the e4od in my 95 (Don't think it's stock and the records indicate the chassis has over 600,000 miles on it though).


I asked for it OLboy. If I was an English Teacher You'd get an A+.

I am not going to answer all your questions on the E4OD as I am more of a C6 guy. I will try to point you in the right direction on some of them.

1.The things that make the transmission strong would apply to Gas Engines for hard parts, clutchs and bands and torque convertors.

2. I would likely skip the billet input shaft at your power level and usage.

3. I will say likely. For almost $400.00 dollars more between the kits you listed, if that is the only difference I would skip them.

4.I don't know.

5. Don't Know.

6. I would keep your C6 convertor if it is a Hugh's if the rebuilder won't give you a higher then stock core refund.
How much is the rebuilder going to charge for the E40D rebuild and what is he going to put in it compared to the Hugh's?

7.I would get a new solenoid pack and maybe a new wiring harness. Remember all the stuff Cooked in transmission fluid snow plowing and is Old. I am a tightwad sometimes but, that is not the place to scrimp.
If you read enough on these E40D's you will see were if a Air Bag Module goes bad it can cause transmission damage. I was glad my 1995 5.0 F150 had a 4R70W when the speedodmeter went out due to the ABM, LoL.
What I am saying is I would not risk it being a problem down the road.

8. That's Five Questions. pale
Yes a manual transmission generally improves gas mileage.
I don't think your HP and said use will require 4 pinion planetaries.
The lower the truck is the better the mileage will be but I would skip all that.
Gear vendors will not get you a lockup convertor so I would skip that with you 2,500 stall speed.
I would skip the T-Case mess also.

I will do a Part II on the other stuff in a little while.

Yes you 5.8 is broken and if it gets 18 to 20MPG on the highway you should trade it to me for a 5.0.LoL

PART III

1. Yes you are spoiled on the overdrive and so am I. I used to run my 2 wheel drive 1978 F150 351 F150 for 1,400 miles with a 3.92 gear at 85/90 MPH. Would not want to do it now.
I would get rid of the NP203 anyway. Had a NP 205 38" Swampers with a 351 Grannie 4 Speed in a 1979 4X4 also and could not break it. No we were not kind to it either.


2. Don't touch the 1995 until it breaks.

3. Aluminum heads and a medium cam, I bet you could turn the timing down, fatten the fuel curve a tad and sneak by with regular gas in a pinch.

4. WTH 600,000 miles on the 1995?
Go for the E4OD rebuild it's a good learning experience. To bad it has a different bell housing then the 351W. You could have a spare trans. in a pinch. If it's about like a C6, it's a quick gut/case swamp anyway on the 1995.

Extra Bonus: If you go for a ZF5 Speed a 7.3L won't fit a 7.5L gas engine.

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Post  supervel45 September 22nd 2022, 12:58 am

PS: Check your kickdown lever on your C6 at full throttle. It should be all the way down and tight.

If you don't have one GET ONE.

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Post  supervel45 September 22nd 2022, 2:06 am

Son of a Bitch! Convertors Out of Stock.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Hughes-Performance/512/46-25L/10002/-1

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/hughes-performance/part-type/torque-converters/transmission-type/e4od

Yea, definitely keep your Hughes C-6 Convertor.

To one of your other questions. A lot if not most high performance convertor are built off of factory shells.
Always try to get a junk or old stock unit for a core, if you can.

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Post  supervel45 September 22nd 2022, 1:19 pm

Dave McClain has a lot of great info on his swap. Claims you can get buy without moving the tank with a hammer mod. That was on a 1979 two wheel drive, so probably won't work on your 4X4. He also shares his mileage increase. It was nothing to write home about.

If you don't have a speedo gear output shaft in your core I would recomend you get one.

https://www.460ford.com/threads/e40d-vs-c6-economy.158287/page-2

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Post  Landship_Captain September 27th 2022, 12:28 am

supervel45 wrote:PS: Check your kickdown lever on your C6 at full throttle. It should be all the way down and tight.

If you don't have one GET ONE.

Thanks for all these answers, I keep coming back here as I check everything over!

I will have to adjust the band on the C6 and try the modulator again, the kickdown still seems to be all good though. I also know the fluid looks very clean, at least when I spilled a bunch because I forgot to drain it before I took that np203 off... nice and red, no funky smell... Now it's all fresh too. Really glad the truck is just tall enough to jam a 5 gallon bucket under.


Moving on: I have ordered that $533 kit and bearing style center support, it looks like transpartswarehouse has already managed to get it out of their doors too. Hopefully it works out well but I will definitely inspect everything as much as I can.

Transgo answered my email 3 minutes after I sent it (at odd hours too), I might as well quote it here for the benefit of others. I asked if the E4OD-HD2 kit already contains everything from the E4-VL-LR3.
Robert of Transgo wrote:It comes with only one of the three valves, the one for the 1-2 accumulator that is much more prone to sticking then the other three. However, many techs like to replace them all while they are in there, so we made a pack of three available for them. Unless you are experiencing a problem with valves sticking you don't need to get the LR3 kit.


I'm definitely going to try to get an NP205 and maybe a "clocking ring" now. I measured one of those mirrored ones on a 72 chevy and it was notably shorter than either the np203 or bw1356. In fact, it looks like it would make up for the length difference between the e4od and c6! I will likely need the clocking ring to avoid having the front driveshaft u-joint hit the pan, at least that's what I've read and it does look that way. I will keep using that thread you mentioned as a reference too, might not need to touch the fuel tank though.

I will shove this here for the benefit of others: If my measurements were right, the np205 is about 10.5"-11.5" from the transmission adapter to the base of the u-joint/tip of the tailhousing, the np203 is about 19" and the 1356 is about 19-20". The c6 seems to be about 20" from bellhousing to back, plus the 5-6" 4x4 tailhousing, the e4od is 27¼" plus a 4-5"  4x4 tailhousing. I will have to double check the measurements but that looks pretty damn promising!


If I use the np205 I should be able to use a pass through VSS like this or this as well, at least from the look of this forum post anyway.

You're right, I should just get a new solenoid pack.

From what I've read about that quick 4 controller, it does indeed let you use an overdrive switch. I will probably still shoot them an email for clarification on how it's set up though.

I will keep looking at torque converters but all the e4od converters with lockup seem to be 75-100% more expensive than C6 converters of similar specs and quality.


Again, I really appreciate all your answers!


P.S. Yeah, that 95 is strange, it had 230,000 on the odometer when I bought it (260,000 now) but, was recorded as having 360,000 miles on it at a Ford dealership multiple times in 06 or 07 (damn, Geico no longer does free carfax I guess). The guy I bought it from had thought the transmission and engine had been rebuilt at some point but, didn't seem to have found out about the total mileage. At least he thought the wear on it was from mistreatment, something about the suspension wear and sag he fixed making him think it had either been severely overloaded or jumped. I still wonder if one of the previous owners actually went through and legally got the odometer reset or something else (didn't show any record of that bit).

I think I might try to get a worn out 351w just so I can rebuild it as a spare, the current one might leak oil and lack in power but I'm hesitant to mess with that highway mileage.

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Post  supervel45 September 27th 2022, 4:41 am

If the shifts got softer in the C-6 after you put the 2,500 RPM convertor in it may be because of the higher stall speed. I notice quite a lot of shift firmness loss between the stock convertors and the higher stall units in all of my transmissions.

I wish I could help you more on the transfer case but, I am a 2WD guy for the most part.

I don't like automatic overdrives either. I will do what I can to help you or try to hopefully point you in the right direction if I don't know.

From what I understand hooking up a stand alone over drive button is not that hard. Baumann should know and he can hook you up there one way or another.

Like I said leave the 1995 alone except for oil and normal maintainence and tires. I am still shocked ours is as reliable as it has been.

When you adjust the band make damn sure the truck is on level ground or the wheels are chaucked.
The C6's will pop into reverse on you, don't ask me how I know.

Headers by the band servo housings will cook the servo piston, something else to keep in mind with the C6's. That's what got me building them the first time.

Make sure the vacuum line is good and pulling vacuum to the modulator and check for trans fluid in the line when you pull it off at the trans side.

Before you get too deep into the E40D you may want to round up a few tools. You don't need all of them but you will need a few before it's over. Below is a small sample, you may be able to FAB some like we did also.


https://www.streetsidetools.com/category-s/1871.htm


Starting off learning to build overdrives is a little tougher then the old 3 speeds, so you need to be on your game and extremely meticulous/anal/engineer/retentive or you will have problems.

With that said go for it. It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it and will likely be successful.

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Post  supervel45 September 27th 2022, 7:06 am

Oh a paper copy of this is nice. Merry Christmas.

https://www.fordtruckzone.com/attachments/e4od-pdf.26363/

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Post  supervel45 September 27th 2022, 8:15 am

Here's your Shift Kit Instructions and the Install tread if you need it. You can read it before the parts show up and then read it again and again. I put it here so it does not get lost in the shufful of the top bar, I know what you meant about that.


https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1287085-the-installation-of-transgos-e40d-hd2-d-reprogramming-kit-shift-kit.html

I would look at post #18 in the above link with the TCI method of staking that front pump bushing front and rear. I staked one on a C6 that spun once and the knureled special bushing with some Loctite could work but, then you have to hone the pump larger.

You should write your notes down and parts used, ect and keep them all in your ATSG manual. It makes life so much easier.

https://www.460ford.com/threads/e40d-vs-c6-economy.158287/page-2

Post 33 By Dave. ^^^ Same with the planitery's if they are aluminum and you can get steel one for not too much.

Since I believe you are upgrading the hub support check the shaft to make sure it's in deep enough as said in post #33.

It maybe overkill but might as well if you can.

Make notes on all problematic area's and any updated parts ie later model or 4R100.










i

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Post  RayDav October 2nd 2022, 6:46 pm

Landship_Captain wrote:I really want to build a transmission for my truck and I really like the idea of having overdrive and a locking torque converter in there with a controller I can play around with .

I skimmed thru the thread.  Hopefully I won't be duplicating anything.

I have an 84 E350 that weighs about 9K#.  It came with a 460/C6, 3.06 rear.  I put an E4OD behind the 460 and changed the rear to 3.55.  Then swapped in a 7.3 turbo diesel.

The controller is Baumann.  https://www.becontrols.com

It is the first gen which has two profiles.  I am also running a current version on a AODE which has four profiles; more things to play around with than you will know what to do with.

I rebuilt the current E4OD in the van to 97 level, and added a tugger kit.

Absolutely get a triple disk converter.  I have gotten them for $250-400.  A single disk once sent me home on a flat bed.

Did I touch on anything new?

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Post  Landship_Captain October 2nd 2022, 8:31 pm

RayDav wrote:
Landship_Captain wrote:I really want to build a transmission for my truck and I really like the idea of having overdrive and a locking torque converter in there with a controller I can play around with .

I skimmed thru the thread.  Hopefully I won't be duplicating anything.

I have an 84 E350 that weighs about 9K#.  It came with a 460/C6, 3.06 rear.  I put an E4OD behind the 460 and changed the rear to 3.55.  Then swapped in a 7.3 turbo diesel.

The controller is Baumann.  https://www.becontrols.com

It is the first gen which has two profiles.  I am also running a current version on a AODE which has four profiles; more things to play around with than you will know what to do with.

I rebuilt the current E4OD in the van to 97 level, and added a tugger kit.

Absolutely get a triple disk converter.  I have gotten them for $250-400.  A single disk once sent me home on a flat bed.

Did I touch on anything new?

The torque converter stuff is new for sure, I'm glad a core came with my E4od. I'm also glad I put a ATI flex plate with both the 4 and 6 bolt patterns in when the "hardened" teeth on my old hays got ruined (I couldn't find anything bad about them but, I had some starter issues and there went the damn teeth...). Once I get further along I will have to start shooting companies emails about their converters.

Yeah, those controllers definitely keep looking better and better! It should be fun to play around with all those settings without having to roll under the truck.


For a general update, the rebuild kit arrived and had an odd mix of mostly Raybestos and Ford/OEM clutches, the forward pack is Borg Warner though so that bit worked out well. I will probably keep "Transparts Warehouse" in mind for other things given how quickly they shipped that stuff too.

I also got a decent married Ford NP205 for $100 out of a junkyard... I probably spent more time trying to clean the thing in a car wash than I did getting it out. Definitely going to open it up and possibly rebuild it given how dirty it was.

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Post  supervel45 October 2nd 2022, 9:04 pm

Cool. Can you just order the drive shafts at a decent price now so you don't have to cut up/lengthen all your C6 stuff ?

The reason I ask is in case you have any problems with the E40D.

How much are the Quick 4's going for now?

Are you going to order the ATSG manual or try to wing it off the net?

To the other poster how boosted was the Diesel?

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Post  RayDav October 2nd 2022, 9:48 pm

supervel45 wrote:

To the other poster how boosted was the Diesel?

The turbo is on the frame at a point about the rear of the trans - no room on the engine.

Pulling a decent hill in third, I get about seven. Highest I have ever seen is ten.

RayDav

Posts : 21
Join date : 2016-10-03

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  supervel45 October 2nd 2022, 10:02 pm

I was thinking his gas engine, lighter truck and 4.11 gears would be easier on the convertor/Lockup clutch then yours. I linked that image of the E40D and did not even notice you in there. The Ford Big Block world is too small LoL. Those lockup convertors are pricy in 2022 dollars now for sure. Crying or Very sad

supervel45

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

Post  RayDav October 3rd 2022, 3:53 pm

If someone gets ambitious enough to build an E4OD/R100, here are a few pics that show the magnitude and a couple hints.

There are captions.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bvJLs1YriEaGjguF6

RayDav

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E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing Empty Re: E4OD build reccomendations for a 79 f150... first transmission build, no ideah what I'm doing

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