Cam or Lifter Failure....one lifter out of 16 HUGE wear issue (Photo)

This is a first for me...
After 5 hours of operation and one oil change, had a rocker start clicking hard while I was out for a drive and it took me 25 minutes to get home.
Photo shows the left bank lifters in order (L to R). No unusual wear patterns on any of the other lifters although I found one lifter on #1 with the retaining spring missing!
Rockers, pushrods, etc...all good
Have not pulled the cam yet and cannot see the lobe (suspect is #5 intake so hidden from view).
I am suspecting I will now need to tear down the entire engine....

Give me some thoughts....
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/14/51/28/01/left_b13.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/14/51/28/01/valley11.jpg

Maybe its me but why is the one lifter so much shorter than the others. What kind of oil are you using. what was your breakin procedure?
Bob

just the way its laying in the cloth imo

Yes, as you suspect, you have big time cam and lifter wear issues. You will need to R&R the engine and go through everything again, because metal has most likely gone through your bearings.

Just for verification, drain the oil into a very clean pan. Then run a magnet through the oil in the pan before you dump it out. That will confirm the bad news. Furthermore you can cut open your filter and look at it.

Charlie Evans

Believe me, the lifters were all the same length when installed and yes, the one is worn extensively.
Used Comp Cams recommended break in process including all the additives, fired on third revolution, ran between 1500-2500 for 30 minutes, the whole bit including additive.
Everything was running fine until after first oil change (GTX 30) plus 1/2 bottle break in additive and I did inspect the oil closely including magnet with very minimal particles found.
Started, verified oil pressure, drove for 25 minutes when noticed tapping, 25 minutes home before shut down.
Pulled valve cover and found rocker lose and decided the required adjustment did not make sense so opened it up.

Why just one lifter is what is bugging me.....

As to why it was just that one lifter,,,,,you may never know. It could have been any number of things, from the Rockwell hardness of that lifter, to the Parkerizing process on the camshaft, to a tight lifter bore, to a mistake in the lifter preload adjustment, to a pushrod not being fully seated in the cup. When you disassemble it and are rebuilding it, check that lifter bore closely and maybe polish it.

Charlie Evans

Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

UHGGGGGGGG!
Just order bearings, gaskets, cam and lifters......
Sticking with the comp cam xtreme XE274H, seems to deliver what I want in terms of HP and streetability.Running a D0VE block, D0VE heads (already have comp cam matching springs) ports cleaned up a bit, 9.5-1 pistons, and trying to achieve around 370hp.
Any other suggestions?

mustang68mustangs1 wrote:Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

Unless there's a joke I'm not privy to, I think Lem's brother actually responded.

Bernie wrote:

mustang68mustangs1 wrote:Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

Unless there's a joke I'm not privy to, I think Lem's brother actually responded.

I think your right How bout that Lem...

56Tbird wrote:

Bernie wrote:

mustang68mustangs1 wrote:Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

Unless there's a joke I'm not privy to, I think Lem's brother actually responded.

I think your right How bout that Lem...

Bernie wrote:

mustang68mustangs1 wrote:Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

Unless there's a joke I'm not privy to, I think Lem's brother actually responded.

just so you know they are brothers from different parents....no relation

That failure is pretty odd, only one that bad. I'd talk with comp about it and also check spring clearance, rockers arm and everything for any binding on the lobe.

Whoops! Sorry for the mixup. You guys are tough. LOL like a bunch of sharks to to raw meat.Thanks for correcting me.
Bob

i'm really suprised it came out of the bore when my cam went flat i had to push um out the bottom.... good luck

dfree383 wrote:

Bernie wrote:

mustang68mustangs1 wrote:Wow so that lifter really is worn down that much,Lem covered all the bases. Good luck in getting it all back together.
Bob

Unless there's a joke I'm not privy to, I think Lem's brother actually responded.

just so you know they are brothers from different parents....no relation

That failure is pretty odd, only one that bad. I'd talk with comp about it and also check spring clearance, rockers arm and everything for any binding on the lobe.

While I may be new here, I have read almost every thread, mind you, with a 1% retention rate. I know that they are father and son.

Looks like that single lifter failed, and hard! I had that happen with an old 302 a couple years back and was scary as hell because I'd never experienced something like that before. Your bearings might be good, but your cam is toast! Comp Cams might replace it because of the severity of failure, but open it up and see what's going on anyhow.

Good luck and sorry for your rough luck on a fresh build.

Guys,

Lem will be mad at those that think he's old enough to be my dad, , actually I'm the old fart, not him. While we're not brothers my momma loved him and his momma loved me, so I guess that's the most important thing.

Back to the cam and lifter problem, I don't see how the manufactuer can be blamed, because there are too many other variables. With blocks that have been oven baked and steel abrated, many times I have seen the lifter bores be "beat up" enough that lifters could not even go in the bore, and if they did they sure as heck couldn't rotate freely. If a hydraulic or solid lifter can't spin in it's bore, it will knock the lobe off of a cam every time! For that reason I always check and make sure that the lifters fit the bores, can move freely and we do that early in the process of engine building. Lifter bores can be honed with a cheap brake cylinder hone, or they can be hit with a small flap wheel, or a cross buff like what head porters use.

Secondly is the issure of is the pushrod correctly seated in the lifters cup, or is it hung up on the edge of the cup. Not only is it seated in the lifter cup, but is it seated in the rocker arm's cup. Again I've seen this mistake a dozen times at least.

Hope this helps,
Uncle Charlie

Sorry to hear this I went through the same thing but wiped 4 lifters in the first 15 min. of break in I used everything just like you.. Then I heard comp cams are having alot of problem with the 429-460 the fe motors and the big block chevy's a problem with hardness on the cams, it really pissed me off all that work and metal all through my motor... now it sits in the corner... Thanks to Rick Brown and Little Tweetys old motor got me up and running. Hope all works out for you.

Audie

I had one eat 13 lobes and lifters like the one in the pic during break in, made a hell of a mess...............I threw a used cam, old bearings and rings from two old builds and sprayed a good bit of nos on it....I even reused the head gaskets...............was a damn fine runnin motor till a pressed wrist pin walked into the bore..............all rollers here from now on.

these cam companies dont give a shit,they'll sell them all day long knowing they have a bad product cuz it's yours when you use it and you're the one who f****d it up.just like all the automotive paint i'v used over the years,some came off but it was the way it was put on that caused it. 20yr ago you could buy a cam,put it in and run it without all the magic break in bs and spring swap'en.

cool40 wrote:these cam companies dont give a shit,they'll sell them all day long knowing they have a bad product cuz it's yours when you use it and you're the one who f****d it up.just like all the automotive paint i'v used over the years,some came off but it was the way it was put on that caused it. 20yr ago you could buy a cam,put it in and run it without all the magic break in bs and spring swap'en.

That is because 20 years ago there were plenty of anti wear additives ZZDP etc in motor oil not to mention that the cam lobes available 20 years ago were quite a bit less agressive than they are these days.


So far as flat tappet cam shafts go:
CWC (cannon, wynen and campbell) sp? supply the raw castings the majority of which are cast in Mexico. Those are then machined into cams by either camshaft machine or engine power components here in the states.

They cwc) are the only supplier of raw castings so far as I have been able to find.


The steel roller billets are made by camshaft machine here in the states.

This information is as supplied by my cam grinder.

The irons hardness is about 1.5 rockwell lower than the old factory cams. I have never had a reground ford manufacturered blank fail when i used notched lifters and proper break in proceedure. I sell a bunch of cams every year and have hads few failures not attributable to installer or break in error. I am more suspicious of the lifters these days than the cam cores...

I am in complete agreement with the issues that charlie evans mentions in his post in this thread.

Pretty amazing, I pulled the cam and retreived the magnet from the oil pan as well as inspected oil, and did not find as much metal as I would have thought. More like grey matter with very few identifiable metal flakes although I know it has to be there. Even went through the first change oil with nothing. Still have to cut the filters open (any suggestions on the best way to do this without creating contamination?)

Anyway, found two exhaust lobes affected (#1 worn down .04 and #6 down .07). #1 x lifter was worn down .02 in (and had to press it out from below) and you saw #6x. All other lifters looked perfect.

I am really doubting the cam is at fault but taking it over to a Grimes Engines to help diagnose the failure for whatever corrections I need to make.
Looking at the cam bearings and faces, I do not see the normal signs of contamination but I am not the expert on reading this.
While a pain, might be a blessing as I found my intake gaskets around the water ports where not holding up either.....

https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/14/51/28/01/cam_fr10.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/14/51/28/01/cam_nu10.jpg

I had the same issue , but it was a FMS 460 Hydraulic cam and I used Comp lifters. All the usual run in and prep , but came out a little worse than yours by the look of it.

I hoped for a clean and cam change , but not that easy.

Metal in all the bearings .

Tear it down completely , scrub all the oil galleries , new cam , lifters , bearings etc. Biggest issue i had was the pistons. When the skirt pops out the bottom of the hole under the dying lifter/lobe , the metal filings drop on the skirt and lodge in the aluminium. Had to pick out the bits from the pistons with a scribe , them clean up the scored/scratched skirts with a scourer type pad. Should really have changed the piston , buts its a race only engine so apart from looking ugly , it was fine.

The filings in the skirt scored the bore pretty bad , and again as its race only engine , gave those bores a hone. New rings and we were away. Wouldnt do it to a street engine though as it might turn into a bit of an oil burner.

Just my experience. ( PS: I went and bought a Comp XR292R-10 cam and lifter kit. Came with everything I needed and at a good price. Will never go flat tappet again).

John.