Price of Horse Power

Being new to the site, I am impressed with the knowledge of the people on this site. Amazing.... Is their a discussion somewhere or a link to how much Horse Power costs....that you guys have discussed in the past.
My question is can you or has any of you built a 600 HP Big Block 429/460 for $3,000.00 or under?

depends on what you have already?
if you hasd to start from scratch it would be hard
but if ya find some deals on used parts
than yes it can be done

Guess I should mentioned that.....I have a stock 71 429 with Dove heads...out of a Torino.

Couple of questions:

1) What is this engine going to be used for?

2) How many miles do you want to go before having to pull the engine to freshen it up?

3) How did you come up that you want 600 hp?

4) Is running race gas mixed with pump gas, or just straight race gas, ok?

Dave

600hp CAN be done on a 460, but you'll have to look at the parts you get extremely carefully and wait for the deals you want to come along. I think the most money you'll drop on the motor at any given time will be machine work, roller cam, carb, and dyno tuning in that order. You've got a really nice start with the short block and heads, you're next buy should be a 460 crank and a set of pistons.

About $10-12 per hp is achievable, much less than that is hard to do. Forged pistons are over $500, head rebuild $500 + porting, good rods $500, and the list keeps going.

all you got=all you can get

My answer would be a big fat NO. I started pricing out a low buck deal in your power range and I can tell you it blew way past $3000 in a heartbeat. Now if you had some parts to get you started or if you could find some good deals on used parts that might be different. The biggest cost will be the heads. While Lem has the best deal around on the SCJ's by the time you buy heads, rockers, studs, pushrods, gaskets etc plus the custom pistons you will almost be at your budget. Then you are going to need a decent intake, carb, headers, exhaust etc and now you just spend and easy 4-5k. There is going to be those that say you can make that kind of power with your stock heads and you can. You can pay Scotty the same or more than the SCJ's so you are still out the money.

Now there are other parameters that can effect this as mentioned in the previous posts. What is the purpose of the engine, how much compression can you stand etc. Something tells me if you are on budget with the build then $6/gal race fuel is out of the question.

IF you get 600 hp for 3k,then comes the rest that should take care of the power.
Transmission,rearend,....(brakes).......

Totaly possible IMO, if your very sharp and wait for the right deals and find good used parts. It won't take exotic or expensive stuff to get their. A Flat tappet cam and 4150 carb will do it. Factory duraspark ignition no msd stuff needed.

Of course you will need to do alot yourself and it won't be a pretty motor, bare basic git-r-done kinda thing. In fact this would be a cool contest or bet.........

My opinion is your goal is achievable, But your biggest stumbling block will be getting the air flow you need to meet your goal.

A set of 2.190 valves and home ported Dove's will get the job done. Spend the $30.00 for Scotties site if you are new to porting heads, and you can get to where you want to be.

300 cfm Dove's, good solid flat tappet (mid 260's intake @ .050 low 270's exh. 108 sep .600 ish lift), flat tops, zero deck, 472-477 cid , ported Victor 4500 intake, 1050 dom.
If you can find a used roller set up, it will make the project easier.

JMHO.

IDT-572 wrote:My opinion is your goal is achievable, But your biggest stumbling block will be getting the air flow you need to meet your goal.

A set of 2.190 valves and home ported Dove's will get the job done. Spend the $30.00 for Scotties site if you are new to porting heads, and you can get to where you want to be.

300 cfm Dove's, good solid flat tappet (mid 260's intake @ .050 low 270's exh. 108 sep .600 ish lift), flat tops, zero deck, 472-477 cid , ported Victor 4500 intake, 1050 dom.
If you can find a used roller set up, it will make the project easier.

JMHO.

X2

Careful shopping for parts etc and forgoing the bling is absolutely necessary. Alot depends on what you have already.

Re: Price of Horse Power
DJOHAGIN Yesterday at 9:46 pm

Couple of questions:

1) What is this engine going to be used for?
I just want to put it in my Ranchero and have a bad @$$....street machine....jump on it once in awhile and smoke a few Mopars & Chevrolets.

2) How many miles do you want to go before having to pull the engine to freshen it up?
Only going to put a few thousand miles a year on it. So once would be just fine with me.

3) How did you come up that you want 600 hp?
Just a goal and I'm sure I could be happy with 500 to 550. Never had a car with that kind of horse power and now with kids gone I have the time to do it and the resources if I don't get too crazy.

4) Is running race gas mixed with pump gas, or just straight race gas, ok?
I want to run pump gas....premium would be just fine.

Thanks for the help.....I'll keep reading and watching the site...I am planning on running 3:70 gears and a C-6 Road Ripper 3000 from Certified Transmission...I work for them in Kansas City and the C-6 will handle the horse power pretty easy.

g612gr wrote:Re: Price of Horse Power
DJOHAGIN Yesterday at 9:46 pm

Couple of questions:

1) What is this engine going to be used for?
I just want to put it in my Ranchero and have a bad @$$....street machine....jump on it once in awhile and smoke a few Mopars & Chevrolets.

2) How many miles do you want to go before having to pull the engine to freshen it up?
Only going to put a few thousand miles a year on it. So once would be just fine with me.

3) How did you come up that you want 600 hp?
Just a goal and I'm sure I could be happy with 500 to 550. Never had a car with that kind of horse power and now with kids gone I have the time to do it and the resources if I don't get too crazy.

4) Is running race gas mixed with pump gas, or just straight race gas, ok?
I want to run pump gas....premium would be just fine.

Thanks for the help.....I'll keep reading and watching the site...I am planning on running 3:70 gears and a C-6 Road Ripper 3000 from Certified Transmission...I work for them in Kansas City and the C-6 will handle the horse power pretty easy.

In a heavier car like your Ranchero, I would think concentrating on building more torque would be a better idea than the hp number you are looking at. Something else to think about, is fuel usage. At only a few thousand miles a year, your actual fuel costs will probably be less than $1500 a year on pump gas, and a bit more than double that for $6 a gallon race gas. For a little more gas money each week of driving, you could increase your compression considerably to meet your goals. Build cost difference is little to none when considering heads, pistons, and cam choice... in the end, its about fuel cost.

From the looks of his profile pic he's got a 70-71 Ranchero, which means he's gonna need subframe connectors to keep from twisting the car when he stomps it. As for everything else, bargain shopping is THE way to go but I'd get a new roller cam since it's like getting "free" power. Good luck and hope to see you around more!

dfree383 wrote:Totaly possible IMO, if your very sharp and wait for the right deals and find good used parts. It won't take exotic or expensive stuff to get their. A Flat tappet cam and 4150 carb will do it. Factory duraspark ignition no msd stuff needed.

Of course you will need to do alot yourself and it won't be a pretty motor, bare basic git-r-done kinda thing. In fact this would be a cool contest or bet.........

That's the goal I had in mind, with the solid roller cam, and all the parts, I think I'll have around 3500 in the motor. This is before time on the dyno. It's just in parts and some help with the machining. Good thing I know people that can make the imporatant stuff happen and makse sure what I'm doing is right!

g612gr wrote:Re: Price of Horse Power
DJOHAGIN Yesterday at 9:46 pm

Couple of questions:

1) What is this engine going to be used for?
I just want to put it in my Ranchero and have a bad @$$....street machine....jump on it once in awhile and smoke a few Mopars & Chevrolets.

2) How many miles do you want to go before having to pull the engine to freshen it up?
Only going to put a few thousand miles a year on it. So once would be just fine with me.

3) How did you come up that you want 600 hp?
Just a goal and I'm sure I could be happy with 500 to 550. Never had a car with that kind of horse power and now with kids gone I have the time to do it and the resources if I don't get too crazy.

4) Is running race gas mixed with pump gas, or just straight race gas, ok?
I want to run pump gas....premium would be just fine.

Thanks for the help.....I'll keep reading and watching the site...I am planning on running 3:70 gears and a C-6 Road Ripper 3000 from Certified Transmission...I work for them in Kansas City and the C-6 will handle the horse power pretty easy.

While it may be possible to get the engine to dyno 600 hp, it would be a crappy running street engine, based on your wants and doing it on that budget.

IMHO,

Dave

g612gr wrote:Price of Horse Power?

If you were to walk into a respectable machine shop that is well qualified to build these 385 Series engines, and you are prepared to plunk down the coin to have a proper 600 hp engine built, today's going retail rate is about $1500 per 100 hp.

Now, if you wish to make 600 hp on your own and on a $3000 budget, you can certainly do that too. Just understand that the professionally built 600hp engine is going stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine.

Paul

Paul Kane wrote:

g612gr wrote:Price of Horse Power?

If you were to walk into a respectable machine shop that is well qualified to build these 385 Series engines, and you are prepared to plunk down the coin to have a proper 600 hp engine built, today's going retail rate is about $1500 per 100 hp.

Now, if you wish to make 600 hp on your own and on a $3000 budget, you can certainly do that too. Just understand that the professionally built 600hp engine is going stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine.

Paul

Paul, Not to sound like a dick, but I've gotta disagree with the last part of that statement. While I agree there are tons of people out there with no real mechanical experience that go the route and have someone build their motors. But for the more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them, then the $3000 600hp engine is VERY obtainable and will compete on the same level as most of the pro built motors. My mostly stock, and tuned by me motor from last year competed with several pro built motors and held it's own for what it was. This year, I've had help from several people on this board, but I am assembling it, does that mean it will be crap and not able to compete with the pro built motors? Not taking anything away from you pros, since all of your (and Lem's, Charlie's, Randy, etc) help on forums like this make it easier for average guys like me and many others here to build good solid running combos that they can be proud of. Every motor needs to be dyno tuned to ge the most out of it, whether it's pro built or Joe built.

kjett wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

g612gr wrote:Price of Horse Power?

If you were to walk into a respectable machine shop that is well qualified to build these 385 Series engines, and you are prepared to plunk down the coin to have a proper 600 hp engine built, today's going retail rate is about $1500 per 100 hp.

Now, if you wish to make 600 hp on your own and on a $3000 budget, you can certainly do that too. Just understand that the professionally built 600hp engine is going stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine.

Paul

Paul, Not to sound like a dick, but I've gotta disagree with the last part of that statement. While I agree there are tons of people out there with no real mechanical experience that go the route and have someone build their motors. But for the more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them, then the $3000 600hp engine is VERY obtainable and will compete on the same level as most of the pro built motors. My mostly stock, and tuned by me motor from last year competed with several pro built motors and held it's own for what it was. This year, I've had help from several people on this board, but I am assembling it, does that mean it will be crap and not able to compete with the pro built motors? Not taking anything away from you pros, since all of your (and Lem's, Charlie's, Randy, etc) help on forums like this make it easier for average guys like me and many others here to build good solid running combos that they can be proud of. Every motor needs to be dyno tuned to ge the most out of it, whether it's pro built or Joe built.

kjett,

I understand that there are highly skilled people on this Forum that can do a lot with that amount of money. Realize that there will also be a thousand times as many people coming here to read, trying to learn what can be done and what cannot. Selling those readers on the notion that 600 hp for $3000 is feasible in general is completely misleading. g612gr is asking what the price of horsepower is. I quoted his inquiry and I am answering his question as addressed to him and not those "more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them," which I doubt he has. Also, I did not say that 600 hp for $3000 couldn't be done, in fact I stated that it could be done. 600 hp for $3000 can be done.

And, I also believe that a $9000 600 hp (<---$1500 per 100 hp) engine will stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine, pure and simple. If you find that statement harsh, brazen, insensitive etc, then I apolgize for that. It's my "no eggshells" reply. If you simply flat disagree and think that anyone can build a 600 hp engine for $3000 and it will stand a chance against a $9000 600 hp engine, you certainly have that right as well. This is a Forum.

I, however, think that given the average hot rod artist with $3000 to build for 600 hp versus $9000 retail for 600 hp, the $3000 engine will not stand up to the $9000 engine, hell no. Think of all the different, superior, and additional components used to build the $9000 engine and the resulting greater longevity potential, reliability potential, the better BSFCs, the much much wider range of power most everywhere else in it's operation range around that target 600 hp number, etc. There are many kinds of 600 hp and there is a lot more to 600 hp than just a 600 hp number. And given an additional several thousand dollars to exploit and broaden the potential of a 600 hp engine, I say that the $3000 engine will get beat and beat bad.

Paul

Very well stated Paul

and I agree

res0rli9 wrote:Very well stated Paul

and I agree

Paul in this case is full of BS....... 600 hp is 600 hp doesn't matter who builds it or how much you spent for it..............

I can say I've Watched many a "Pro Built" motors get their AZZES WAXED by Backyard Built "Junk" and I've Seen some junk go together and make real numbers on the dyno for VERY little $$$ and recycling others throw away parts............. I've also seen quite a few "Pro Built" motors the looked more like they where put together by kindergarden kids in coloring class.........

Paul Kane wrote:

kjett wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

g612gr wrote:Price of Horse Power?

If you were to walk into a respectable machine shop that is well qualified to build these 385 Series engines, and you are prepared to plunk down the coin to have a proper 600 hp engine built, today's going retail rate is about $1500 per 100 hp.

Now, if you wish to make 600 hp on your own and on a $3000 budget, you can certainly do that too. Just understand that the professionally built 600hp engine is going stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine.

Paul

Paul, Not to sound like a dick, but I've gotta disagree with the last part of that statement. While I agree there are tons of people out there with no real mechanical experience that go the route and have someone build their motors. But for the more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them, then the $3000 600hp engine is VERY obtainable and will compete on the same level as most of the pro built motors. My mostly stock, and tuned by me motor from last year competed with several pro built motors and held it's own for what it was. This year, I've had help from several people on this board, but I am assembling it, does that mean it will be crap and not able to compete with the pro built motors? Not taking anything away from you pros, since all of your (and Lem's, Charlie's, Randy, etc) help on forums like this make it easier for average guys like me and many others here to build good solid running combos that they can be proud of. Every motor needs to be dyno tuned to ge the most out of it, whether it's pro built or Joe built.

kjett,

I understand that there are highly skilled people on this Forum that can do a lot with that amount of money. Realize that there will also be a thousand times as many people coming here to read, trying to learn what can be done and what cannot. Selling those readers on the notion that 600 hp for $3000 is feasible in general is completely misleading. g612gr is asking what the price of horsepower is. I quoted his inquiry and I am answering his question as addressed to him and not those "more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them," which I doubt he has. Also, I did not say that 600 hp for $3000 couldn't be done, in fact I stated that it could be done. 600 hp for $3000 can be done.

And, I also believe that a $9000 600 hp (<---$1500 per 100 hp) engine will stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine, pure and simple. If you find that statement harsh, brazen, insensitive etc, then I apolgize for that. It's my "no eggshells" reply. If you simply flat disagree and think that anyone can build a 600 hp engine for $3000 and it will stand a chance against a $9000 600 hp engine, you certainly have that right as well. This is a Forum.

I, however, think that given the average hot rod artist with $3000 to build for 600 hp versus $9000 retail for 600 hp, the $3000 engine will not stand up to the $9000 engine, hell no. Think of all the different, superior, and additional components used to build the $9000 engine and the resulting greater longevity potential, reliability potential, the better BSFCs, the much much wider range of power most everywhere else in it's operation range around that target 600 hp number, etc. There are many kinds of 600 hp and there is a lot more to 600 hp than just a 600 hp number. And given an additional several thousand dollars to exploit and broaden the potential of a 600 hp engine, I say that the $3000 engine will get beat and beat bad.

Paul

BS Please Read the above.......

dfree383 wrote:
Paul in this case is full of BS....... 600 hp is 600 hp doesn't matter who builds it or how much you spent for it..............

I would have to say the difference in opinions here is related to the application. If the goal is simply to make 600 hspr on the dyno than you are correct with your statement. Now if you want to actually put it in a car and run it down the track then I think Pauls statements are correct. Because Pauls engine is going to have the 'right' parts for the application I would bet his area under the curve is going to be way different then the other engine scabbed together just to make a peak number.

I've also seen quite a few "Pro Built" motors the looked more like they where put together by kindergarden kids in coloring class.........

This can be applied to any form of rebuilder. I had a friend that worked at a machine shop and they were having problems with one particular shop and a lot of warranty claims. He stopped by one day to see why they where having so many problems and he said the mechanic was putting the engine together on the gravel. LOL. It takes all kinds. Even if it was built right the rest of the combination, car and tuning are just as important and can make a diamond look like a turd.

I think this is a good thread. I have about 3000 in my 464, and it makes about 400 hp. I built this engine with the intention of using it in a street vehicle for MANY years. I could have made different decisions for more power, like cam/spring package, compression, etc, but these would have compromised the longevity potential of the engine. I have been screwing these things together for 20 years without a failure, but that is ONLY because I have a competent machinist that can make everything right. That guy will make or break you. Also, all of my builds have been "street" oriented. When you start talking "race", it is whole different ballgame.