Price of Horse Power

kjett wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

g612gr wrote:Price of Horse Power?

If you were to walk into a respectable machine shop that is well qualified to build these 385 Series engines, and you are prepared to plunk down the coin to have a proper 600 hp engine built, today's going retail rate is about $1500 per 100 hp.

Now, if you wish to make 600 hp on your own and on a $3000 budget, you can certainly do that too. Just understand that the professionally built 600hp engine is going stomp the shit out of the $3000 600 hp engine.

Paul

Paul, Not to sound like a dick, but I've gotta disagree with the last part of that statement. While I agree there are tons of people out there with no real mechanical experience that go the route and have someone build their motors. But for the more inclined people that have access to some of the machining tools and the experience to use them, then the $3000 600hp engine is VERY obtainable and will compete on the same level as most of the pro built motors. My mostly stock, and tuned by me motor from last year competed with several pro built motors and held it's own for what it was. This year, I've had help from several people on this board, but I am assembling it, does that mean it will be crap and not able to compete with the pro built motors? Not taking anything away from you pros, since all of your (and Lem's, Charlie's, Randy, etc) help on forums like this make it easier for average guys like me and many others here to build good solid running combos that they can be proud of. Every motor needs to be dyno tuned to ge the most out of it, whether it's pro built or Joe built.

The only way you are going to have a 600 horsepower engine, (that lives), on a $3,000.00 budget is to do all, (or at least MOST), of the labor yourself; not just simply the assembly.

I have a 600HP motor, and assembled it myself, had the machining done by qualified persons/shops. It took over 2 weeks off and on with mockup and full assembly. It cost over $6K in hard parts, some new, some recycled. Add dyno time and a few upgrades to some questionable reused parts and I was over $7500. Will it last, I hope so, would I have been better off having it built, maybe. I have decent skills and a lot of friends here that helped a lot. Bottom line, even with a lot of used parts, it will be hard to achieve that goal. It will take $1k just from the intake up (capable manifold, carb, and fuel system), that leaves only $2k for the long block. I've got over $4k in my long block. Just some comparisons. I think the $9K that Paul is stating is very realistic and fair.

There is always options, a pro builder might only use aftermarket blocks which if done correctly you would be looking at $3,000 just for the block and machine work. Where if you build the engine yourself you might choose to go with a seasoned factory block for $90 and $600 worth of machine work.
Which I think 600hp in the 385 series world majority of your money will be spent on heads and valvetrain. Start stepping on up to 900hp+ the differance between a hobbiest and a proffisonal is going to start coming inline with one another. Unless you just have invested the money in machinary to do the close tolerance and specailty machine work.

An A++ engine builder probably isn't going to use Speed pro pistons, factory rods and factory crankshaft to build that same 600hp engine like an hobbiest would. He is going to want to see you go with something that in theory would take more abuse. Like all things though, no matter pro or hobbiest. If you have the tune bad off, poor mantiance or just the run of the mill bad racing conditions any engine is lable to have a premature retirement.

PS. As Paul said though the survival chance of the higher dollar pro built engine are alot higher.


This is just my .02 I thought I would throw in.

I have a little over $7,500 in my build and it probably wouldn't have made 600hp.

i guess there is always nitrous,if the bottom end will stand it,then you would make 600 hp!!!

Gentlemen,

I have always thought that Carl, Cars By Carl, had reasonable priced combos. His combos are dyno proven. You want a pump gas 460 that puts out 600 hp, $6,000 delivers an engine minus carb and exhaust. Add a good carb/air cleaner/fuel system assembly and a good exhaust system, and you're going to be at right around $9,000. Those are real prices, not "a buddy doing a favor" or "waiting for the killer deal".

Dfree,

You're an ass. Straight up. Paul has way more experience than you, more than you probably will never achieve. Futhermore, he has happy customers. To say his advise is BS really shows what you know.

Be careful about getting nasty. I will be in your neck of the woods one day, and if you have a problem with what I just said, you can take it up with me at that time.

Dave

$3000 vs Big $$$$ . . who spends $1000 on heavy TRW pistons .why does Scat offer a ultra light crank for way more cash ? more $$$$ engine gets lighter/stronger parts. both may dyno the same power but money and lighter rotating assy. wins -- both car weight the same and same gearing

IMO,the post said Price for Horsepower not [Price For Longevity] so i would say 600 horsepower is 600 horsepower.So i for one would like to see them both on the dyno at the same time same building 600 horsepower $3,000.00 engine and 600 horsepower $9,000.00 engine.

Later Mark.

As some has said . 600hp for $3000 Can be done. IF,you have good /right components,can do assembly yourself,and have good tuning skills. But,guy's if you count your time in ,it will never happen. Hell it takes me forever cleaning,mocking, checking clearances, rechecking,cleaning some more. I'm slower than most,it just takes alot more time to do it right.

For the "average guy" that has to pay for machine work, collect parts and assemble the engine himself, it is not impossible to make 600 hp for $3000... provided he comes up with a multitude of bargains. 3 years ago, I guestimated that I would have 5 grand in a car to go out and run 13s, and pull itself back on the trailer the first few trips to the track, without a winch. I may have been able to do it, but as I read and became more educated on what to do and what not to do... I have found myself beyond my 5 grand... on just the engine. Carl and myself expect it to meet the intentions of what the original poster is looking for. Unless I do something stupid or neglect it, I have a feeling it will last 3 seasons of my schedule of racing with little more than oil changes and inspections. Had I thrown together a 429 with a few select parts, it may have come close, but I would not have a warm fuzzy feeling about it making an entire year, let alone 3 seasons of playtime.

For the shrewd buyer that falls into all kind of deals... he would need to bump into deals (like Jones' fresh heads for his recent selling price that is way less than his investment) on nearly everything to have quality parts throughout the engine. While this is possible if you check out all the repo'd homes and look for divorced women cleaning out the garage for her new boyfriend's Prius, it would take several years, and by the time you get it assembled and running, a 545 will be like building a 429 today... ANCIENT NEWS.

Get away from any bling and it might be done with $1000 per 100hp, add some 3rd/4th decimal point machine work to go along with a little better parts, and it ends up being closer to Paul's $1500 per 100hp. Saying you are doing the machine work yourself, or getting Adney to do his magic (just an example) for a lunch at his favorite burger joint would be as much BS as sponsors giving Car Craft or Hot Rod TV all the items for them to do a $1500 restoration of a 69 Chevelle SS.

DJOHAGIN wrote:Gentlemen,

I have always thought that Carl, Cars By Carl, had reasonable priced combos. His combos are dyno proven. You want a pump gas 460 that puts out 600 hp, $6,000 delivers an engine minus carb and exhaust. Add a good carb/air cleaner/fuel system assembly and a good exhaust system, and you're going to be at right around $9,000. Those are real prices, not "a buddy doing a favor" or "waiting for the killer deal".

Dfree,

You're an ass. Straight up. Paul has way more experience than you, more than you probably will never achieve. Futhermore, he has happy customers. To say his advise is BS really shows what you know.

Be careful about getting nasty. I will be in your neck of the woods one day, and if you have a problem with what I just said, you can take it up with me at that time.

Dave

Again you have nothing usefull to contribute...... and only wish to stir sh*t and not add anything usefull to this conversation.

Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

feetfirst wrote:Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

Which one would pick-up from a shift faster?

Which one isn't as hard on bearings?

Ones in a 2000# Dragster and the others in a 6000# Truck...........

Ones a 9:1 A460 headed motor and the others a 14:1 CJ headed motor......

One has 3.55 Gears the Other had 4.56's...............

Their's alot more to it than just reciprocating mass, but all things being equal, yes the lighter rotating assembly will accelerate quicker, but rarely are all things equal and your typicaly not going to get those parts in any kind of budget build from a builder using new parts, now are you?.........

Lets face it 600hp now day is pretty obtainable with out anything exotic and damn sure doesn't have a the predetermined requirement to be built by a "Pro" to be done right and for a very modest sum.

On the cover of the May Car Craft:

Build this engine for $652.

In the article it states that their SBC makes around 300 hp. If you can strap a couple of 'em together like the pullers do, you can have 600 hp for 1300 bucks.

jones wrote:

feetfirst wrote:Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

Which one would pick-up from a shift faster?

Which one isn't as hard on bearings?

Which one is running........ Whos out having a good time racing??????

dfree383 wrote:

jones wrote:

feetfirst wrote:Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

Which one would pick-up from a shift faster?

Which one isn't as hard on bearings?

Which one is running........ Whos out having a good time racing??????

That was cold my brother,, cold

guys, theres probably litterally 100's of ways to hit 600 hp. If you guys think defree cant pull it off and have it hold out then why dont you guys just build your own 600hp motors and all go racing? personally I like to know first hand what my engine has in it and know how its assimbled. Ill never pay 9000 dollars for 600 hp. thats just rediculous IMHO.

Paul Kane is right, the Pro engine builder 600HP engine will beat the DIY novice. there are cases were the non pro can beat the pro's , but not on a low budget. example one year, EMC was won by a Newportnews Va. team out of their home garage. they payed to pro's to do individual components and did a bolt together. still need a pro somewhere .

jones wrote:

dfree383 wrote:

jones wrote:

feetfirst wrote:Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

Which one would pick-up from a shift faster?

Which one isn't as hard on bearings?

Which one is running........ Whos out having a good time racing??????

That was cold my brother,, cold

Don't take it hard Bro..... Get it together and running, it doesn't have to be perfect to have fun.

Maddmattmustangs wrote:guys, theres probably litterally 100's of ways to hit 600 hp. If you guys think defree cant pull it off and have it hold out then why dont you guys just build your own 600hp motors and all go racing? personally I like to know first hand what my engine has in it and know how its assimbled. Ill never pay 9000 dollars for 600 hp. thats just rediculous IMHO.

in compitition racing ,can pay twice that or more for engines in that 600hp range

Dave that what it's about..... having fun. if you got the budget fine , if not ---do what you can and have a good time.

dfree383 wrote:

jones wrote:

dfree383 wrote:

jones wrote:

feetfirst wrote:Sooooh......you have 2 motors making 600 hp............#1 has a bob weight of 2300, #2 has a bob weight of 1900...

Which one is faster "at the track"......?

Which one would pick-up from a shift faster?

Which one isn't as hard on bearings?

Which one is running........ Whos out having a good time racing??????

That was cold my brother,, cold

Don't take it hard Bro..... Get it together and running, it doesn't have to be perfect to have fun.

I'm not, I was just letting you know that was a cold statement. Takes more than that to make me cry.

Seriously though, would you notice a differance in drag racing if all things where equal besides the rotating assembly weight?

Debatable.... But you could see a slight advantage with the lighter rotational weight, but its not like putting a 150 shot on it............ a few hundred grams in bob weight isn't the end of the world.

Jones the more weight you can cut from the rotating mass , the quicker . i asked earlier, why some pay the big buck for light components. i think it can be ruled out , they have to much money in their wallet.

g612gr wrote:Being new to the site, I am impressed with the knowledge of the people on this site. Amazing.... Is their a discussion somewhere or a link to how much Horse Power costs....that you guys have discussed in the past.
My question is can you or has any of you built a 600 HP Big Block 429/460 for $3,000.00 or under?

g612,

While I see plenty of talk how 600 hp is possible, what I found interesting is no one has come forward and said they have done it for $3,000 or under. Torque is what rules on the street. If having an engine that is sluggish to 4,000 rpm, and then gets going after that is your bag, then yes, build a low compression, big cam engine. And I'm talking about a 10 to 1, 266-272ish duration @ .050 solid lifter cam, self ported C9s, and a Torker II with a 850 cfm carb. If you where to drive with that motor in your car, and then run a 10 to 1, 240-ish @ .050 solid roller cam, professionally ported TFS street heads with a TFS single plane with a professionally tuned 950 cfm carb motor, you would think the 2nd engine has 100 more hp that the first. And I'm talking about your car, with the stall you want to use and the gearing you want to use. That is no BS.

600 hp is not 600 hp. Where it is rpm wise, and the torque below the hp peak have a more significant impact for street use. You're not gearing for the first engine at all, and that is why I tell you it's going to be crappy for street use. Everything has to work together. What you're asking for gearing, pump gas, and 600 on that budget will not work together. Change some things, and yes it can work. Put in steeper gears and more stall. Now the engine will be where is wants to be, in the higher rpms. It will suck up gas like you won't believe, but it will be fast. Everything is a compromise, but don't compromise it to what you think the engine wants, but what the engine wants. That is the secret.

Hope that helps,

Dave