A460 Block: 534ci engine build thread

[D. Sea]

Bare with me, I copied all of this and when I get time I'll fix what's needed: This began in 2007 and then progresses from there.

[D. Sea]

I started working on my new A460 block on Saturday. Mainly just deburring areas and I tried to test fit my 3.85" stroke 460 crank and it won't fit. The counter Weights are too thick and it's hitting the block between the main web and cylinder bores. Way too much clearancing required. I'm assuming that the aftermarket cranks have thinner counterweights along with being shorter?
So I'm going to get a 4.3" stroker crank, use the 6.800" Eagle H-beam rods from my current rotating assembly and get some new pistons. Gee what a shame
I'll need to sell my 466 pistons and crank to help fund the new items.
Now I'm debating on what to do. I'd like to upgrade the rod bolts in my Eagle rods however from what I've researched the 8740 bolts are good up to 850hp with a Big Block. Sound right to you? I wanted to get a set of the ARP 2000 series bolts. I called Eagle and they said that a 1.6" underhead bolt will work but a 1.75" is preferred. I then went to ARP's 2006 Catalog and I can't find a 1.75" 7/16 Cap Screw Rod Bolt. Found a 1.8" bolt part number ARP-200-6204 but it says it's for "Lentz" ??? $153.88 in Summit. The Eagle Replacement bolts on Summit are still listed as 8740 Material but with higher yield strengths. I think that I'm over thinking this rod bolt issue.
Next issue is to go Cast or 4340 Steel? I'll be using the same top end package from my 466 that was producing nearly 700 Flywheel HP and 560 RWHP on a Chassis dyno. I don't ever plan on spraying this engine so IMO the Cast crank will suffice. In the 1/4 I was crossing the line at 7000 rpms while shifting at 6800 rpms but I primarily 1/8 mile race now so shifting a few hundred rpms less is fine with me and when I race 1/4 I can just crank it on up to 7000 again.
Before I split the cylinder in my 466 I was planning on having my converter tweaked because it was too tight. My thinking now is that with the larger stroke crank, more cubes (Either a 521 or a 533) and with the same roller cam the peak torque rpm will drop and my converter will now be "On the money" FYI Cam is 272/280 at .050 with .727 lift. We discussed this on the old Forum one time in a thread about what would happen if we ONLY changed the crank from a 3.85 to a 4.3"
Now another dilemma. One of the local truck pullers that we used to pull with has a 4.5" steel crank with aluminum rods and pistons to make a 557. BUT if I were to go that route I think my A429 heads would be too restrictive and I would definitely have to change to a larger roller cam. Anyway, It's just a thought and most likely I'd just want the crank.
This post is mainly just an update but Any comments or suggestions are welcome!!

[D. Sea]

Here's an update on what's going on and an oppurtunity for you to critique my plans and parts. Still in the parts collecting stage.
Getting some JE pistons from Chris to make a 533 (4.440" bore x 4.3" stroke). The pistons have one valve notch and according to JE's website it is a 3.0 cc notch making 13.6:1 compression with a 10.300" deck height or "0" deck clearance.
The A460 blocks come with 10.322" deck height. Based on what I've found via this forum detonation is more likely with larger deck clearances over .010" correct? I'd like to set the deck height at 10.310" based on the below information. What do you think? I'd like to set the static compression at or around 13.0:1
According to my calculator if I set the deck height at
10.320" or .020 "Deck Clearance, then the compression will be 12.76:1
10.310" or .010" Deck Clearance, then the compression will be 13.09:1
10.305" or .005" Deck Clearance, then the compression will be 13.26:1
10.300" or .000" Deck Clearance, then the compression will be 13.44:1
I still need Rings, Bearings, Oil pan gasket and rear main seal.
Tried to get Chris's new rings but he wouldn't come up off of 'em
So should I just get some JE or Speed Pro Chrome Moly piston rings? 1/16 1/16 3/16. Most likely will order them from Lem when I order the crank, bearings etc........
Was going to get the F/M (SpeedPro Racing Bearings) 3/4 main bearings and clevite 77 rod bearings. That's what was in my 466 and have had really good luck with them in the past.
Planned on running my cam
Comp Cams Custom Roller
Duration @ .050 272° Intake and 280° Exhaust
Lobe separation 110°
Gross Valve lift .727 Intake and .727 Exhaust
Intake lobe degreed to 106° ATDC
However Chris is selling his roller
283/293 @.050 and .750 lift 112 lobe
angle
BUT then I get into the area of needing to 'tweak' my converter to optimize the peak torque of the engine AND I'd really like to see how this engine runs with JUST the block and Cubic inch change.
Anyway, that's what's going on now. Still in the parts collecting stage!

[D. Sea]

Actually got to tinker in the shop on Sunday. Spent most of the day packaging parts for sale/shipment like my crank and pistons.
For the record I removed those pesky Spirol Locks from one side of each piston and only cut myself ONCE ON the tip of my right hand index finger Kind of hard to type today :?
The rest of my time was spent mocking up the bottom end components like the main studs, oil pump, pickup and windage tray. Everything seemed to line up accordingly until I tried the windage tray.
Look Like I'll have to do some more modifications to the Canton windage tray These main caps are just too 'beefy'

[D. Sea]

Update on what's going on.
As most of you know I've had my 466 pistons and rods for sale. Looks like I may have my balanced rotating assemlby sold including my 6.8" rods.
So I'm getting a set of JE pistons from Chris Jones (should be here Friday) that have a compression height of 1.350" for use with a 6.8" rod and 4.3" crank however they can also be used with a 6.7" rod and a 4.5" crank to make a 557, so let's see if you can guess what I'm building now
My 557 should be VERY similar to the 557 belonging to Chris aka topspormstan916 however his A429 heads flow just a little more than mine and his cam is just a fraction larger.
Will be interesting to see how these changes affect the same engine combination. I'll have 91 more cubic inches and a much stronger, more rigid block. All of the other variables will be unchanged!
The compression ratio will be almost identical at 13.5 to 1 EXCEPT I'll have a flat top piston instead of a dome resulting in better flame travel and less required timing advance.
In the past (old forum) We touched on the subject of what would happen given the exact same heads, cam etc......... and all we change is the cubic inches. We will soon find out
This weekend I'll measure the main bores, what should they measure? What's the tolerance? Before I take this block to the machine shop I'll need to let him know what numbers are required for the align bore.
So that's it for now. More in the very near future!!

[D. Sea]

I haven't got the 4.5" crank yet, still waiting on payment :wink: Won't make that final deciscion until I have cash in hand...
Traction problems shouldn't be an issue with 31 x 14" slicks and my suspension. Drive train is taken care of however I do need to get a stronger pinion yoke and I have Moser axles. If it can handle a Big Shot with my 458 and carrying the front wheels across the 60' lights I think it can handle a larger engine
What I'm planning for is the future. Sure IMO the 557 may be a little large for the heads I have however when I upgrade to A460 heads or some other type of head that works better than my A429's then I'll have enough cubic inches to work with the heads. That's my thinking anyway At that point I'll need to upgrade some other components of my car as well but right now I'm good up to 135-140mph in the quarter but will primarily will be 1/8 mile racing.
When I get to the point of acquiring the crank and other misc. parts I'll give you a call to get them on the way and we can discuss options.
As Always, much appreciated :wink:

[D. Sea]

Here's what I got accomplished over the weekend. Ground on the block a little bit more.
I torqued the main studs and splayed bolts to 80 foot pounds (Instructions say 105 lb-fts) in order to get a fairly accurate main bore dimension.
All of the main bores measure 3.1921" to 3.1922"
I measured each bore in two places. SO it looks like I WILL have to get it aligne bored like Lem told me at the NMRA event. Imagine that, Lem was right again I was kind of hoping that it would be on the high side already but oh well
I also modified my Canton windage tray AGAIN to clear the HUGE main caps. Now when I get the rotating assembly in the block I'll have to check for clearance and maybe space it out a few thou.....

Before Picture:



After Picture:




So that's it. right now I'm just waiting on parts so I can get all this metal down to the machine shop. I have quite a bit of vacation left until January when It's renewed so I may try to work it out where I can take off a few days after the machine work is finished in order to assemble the engine BEFORE the moisture in this shop get's to the exposed metal.
Well that's my long winded update: Hope you enjoyed

[D. Sea]

Got my JE Pistons.
Got 10 pistons in all, 2 of which are unusable due to skirt scoring and 2 which are brand new.
Weighed all of the pistons and they all weighed 605.1 to 605.5 EXCEPT for one of the new ones which weighed in at 603.3 while Eight of the pins weighed between 174.1 to 174.4 while the two new pins have to be odd balls and weight 173.5
Several of the used pistons show evidence of light contact with the Heads and one which is evident in the pictures where it left a small lip on the piston from the chamber edge as well as the resurfaced head indentions.
This same piston also showed some piston to valve contact at one point and has a small groove in the piston skirt. I smoothed down the edges and feel that it's good to run as is.
That's all folks.........



You can view more piston pictures at this link
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f75/Phantasea466/534%20A429/

[D. Sea]

[quote=Lem Evans]So...where was the piston at T.D.C ? In , out or zero ?[/quote]
Good question for the previous owner. IMO it looks like they had to be at zero deck OR out of the hole however I don't know for sure. One also has to consider inconsistency in rod lengths. That is, the rods may have been a few thou off from center to center or
I'll take a few grams out of the older pistons to get them close and match the heavier pin(s) with the lighter piston(s).
Speaking of Pistons, What kind of piston to wall clearance do I need with these 4.440" JE Pistons?
Lem,
Dropped the block off at the Smith's Automotive Machine shop this morning. Butch is going to measure the main bores to see if he get's the same numbers as I do. If not then it won't take much to just run a hone through and set the bores at 3.193" Once I have this information and the measurements with the bearings inside then we can order the crank with specific dimensions :wink: Also need to measure the rod bores with bearings once they both arrive.
thanks!!

[D. Sea]

I believe I'll have to get this block align honed. Butch torqued the caps down to 105 ft-lbs and measured the following
5 main bore 3.1922 and 3.1922
4 main bore 3.1927 and 3.193
3 main bore 3.193 and 3.193
2 main bore 3.193 and 3.1928
1 main bore 3.1923 and 3.1926

I believe his mics are more accurate than mine. He recommends setting the rear main a little looser, however he can do whatever we want.
One note about the main caps. I removed all of the original center bolts and installed main studs.
I called JE Pistons this morning to ask about clearance for a drag engine N/A with part number 170878 which is 4.440" bore. He says the pistons are measured 0.5" from the bottom and should be 4.436"
typically for a street engine one would need .004 to .0045" clearance but for a race only engine then .005 to .0055" would work better.
Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks!

[D. Sea]

Dropped off the torque plate this morning, THANKS Chris!!
Butch will bore and hone the cylinders to fit my pistons and then align hone the block and let me know the numbers.
I have a set of 6.8 H-beam rods with L19 bolts on the way and should be at my residence today or tomorrow.
All I need now is a 4.3" Steel crank and the other misc stuff then we are set!!

[D. Sea]

Stopped by SAM (Smith Automotive Machine) this morning to drop off my new rods. Block is bored but still needs to be align honed and finish honed.
Snapped a picture of the block on the work bench, check out the flat head in the back ground
Here's a few pictures of Butch's Shop along with his Super Flow Dyno. I told him that I may have mine dynoed over in Owensboro and he had a hurt look on his face and asked "You're not going to let me dyno it?" So I asked him if he had a bell and all the stuff to setup my Big Block but all he had is Small block Chevy headers and doesn't have a Big Block Ford Bell
Butch has to dyno this engine today and then ship it out to a customer.

[D. Sea]

4.310" Scat 4340 Forged Crank is getting balanced. My bob weight is 2235 grams so Butch informed me that he needs to remove 220 off one end and 210 on the other end. Instead of making the throws look like swish cheese he's going to set it up in a lathe and take off .050" from all of the counter weights and then check it again. It may take as much as .100" to get it close. Will keep you posted.
Nice looking Forged crank Thanks to Lem for the technical advice and Adney Brown of Performance Crankshafts Inc. for the crank

[D. Sea]

[quote=hookedonpullin]I'm just a little curious as to why its a 4.31 stroke crank. Is that a custom unit? Thanks[/quote]


Yes, it's Kind of custom.
I didn't want to zero deck my new block but I didn't want a BIG quench area either. SO a compromise was reached by decking my block to 10.315" instead of 10.310" and then just adding .010" to the stroke so now my piston to deck height will be .010" and I didn't have to cut the crap out of a new A460 block :wink:
Thanks to my technical advising team for this trick
FYI My Compression height on my pistons are 1.350" If I had ordered new pistons instead of finding these JE pistons at a good price then I would have just ordered pistons for a 10.320" deck height and just skimed the top of the deck.
Hope this made since

[D. Sea]

More information about balancing the Forged Scat Crank.
Some hidden costs about balancing that I learned the hard way. i.e. It may be more economical to have the forged crank balanced at the vendor i.e. AD Performance, Performance Crank shaft, River Racer etc...... Get your bob weights from your machinist and then give that information to the vendor. I had an additional $200 in machining added on to my crank for 4 hours of lathe time to cut weight out of the crank throws in order to make it balance:
Here's the weights from my balancing job. 4.310" Scat 4340 Crank with 6.8" Eagle H-beam rods L19 bolts, JE Flat Top 4.44 pistons

Rod (Big End) 525
Insert 55
Total 580
Times Rods/Throw 2
Total 1160
Oil 4
Rotating Weight 1164
Piston 602
Pin 174
Locks 4
Rings 57
Rod (Small End) 234
total 1071
Times Pistons/Throw 2
Reciprocating Weight 2142
times 50%
Each Half 1117.5
Recoprocating Factor 1071
Bob Weight 2235
Here's the balance notes:
F = Front
R = Rear
Start: Remove F 220 R 211.
Put in lathe & removed .070 from all counters
F 129 R 146
Took .050 off front 3 and .075 off 2 rear ones
F 51 R 63
Took .060 off #3 counter & .040 off 2 rear.
Needed to remove 29 grams from front and had to add a 3/4 X 1.120 piece of Heavy Metal to rear to kick.
Then was 29 to remove in front & 32 to remove in rear. Drilled to balance
F .2 R .1
Now the moral of this story is that my rods were a little lighter than a typical 810 gram H beam rod so if you plan on running an aluminum rod or lighter piston/rod combination then chances are you will need to cut a lot of weight out of the crank.
Hope someone learns from my error :wink:
Here's my crank after it was cut and balanced. Looks NICE now