Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

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Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 2nd 2014, 10:48 pm

Why not titanium pistons vs alum?
Titanium approx 1.8x heavier, higher strength numbers, approx 75% more heat resistant than aluminum and is readily available in nature. The design needs to reduce the weight coefficient of the piston by nearly 40% to keep the weight/RPM numbers relevant but with the added strength and heat resistance it does seem do-able. Given a motor is an air pump and the given inability of current engines to pump oxygen, it seems natural to improve the engines ability to withstand the violent combustion of increased oxygen numbers...ie; N2o why not N10o or N20o ...using redesigned thinner/stronger components that can withstand the violence of the combustion...yeah I know Titanium cranks and rods too, less important in some ways as the weight difference becomes relevant...less than forged steel.

Just my thoughts...


Last edited by FalconEh on October 2nd 2014, 11:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 2nd 2014, 11:59 pm

C'mon I really want to run N20o ...Why Not?
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  cool40 on October 3rd 2014, 12:14 am

Hell....go for it! drunken
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  jones on October 3rd 2014, 9:05 am

Where would you find someone to build these pistons? What type of bore liner would you have to run (? nikasil ?)?

If I remember correct one of Ti down falls is it's ability to grow fractures out of a scratch. That's one reason Ti rods have to be perfectly polished. I guess you could coat the entire piston to keep that from happening.

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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  dfree383 on October 3rd 2014, 9:23 am

It's been done before....... It's just not in most mortal mans budget or practical limits.

Rods are quite common and even in some production cars.

Cranks have been used but the have some design issues and the cost would make warren buffet squeal like a little girl.
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 3rd 2014, 10:09 am

The original title was Dumb late night post... lol!
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  dfree383 on October 3rd 2014, 10:52 am

FalconEh wrote:The original title was Dumb late night post... lol!

Don't chicken out that easy !
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 3rd 2014, 12:31 pm

dfree383 wrote:
FalconEh wrote:The original title was Dumb late night post... lol!

Don't chicken out that easy !

I am not chicken' out, some may have seen the original title which was edited. I do believe it to be an interesting topic however. And the N20o ...well put on the fire suit this is gonna be Fun. jocolor
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  dfree383 on October 3rd 2014, 7:28 pm

Hears the short answer to your question about titanium pistons

Aluminum is lighter.......
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 3rd 2014, 7:51 pm

dfree383 wrote:Hears the short answer to your question about titanium pistons

Aluminum is lighter.......
Awe shucks i didnt understand what I menant when I said 1.8X heavier Wink

Just liked the idea of 1part nitrogen to 20 parts of oxygen What a Face
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  rmcomprandy on October 4th 2014, 4:25 pm

Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  dfree383 on October 6th 2014, 11:53 am

rmcomprandy wrote:Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

You could possible have some reasonably priced forgings made.... Not sure on the quantity required.....my understanding is TI is used a lot in aircraft brake parts.... Like calipers and pistons.
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Mickey Thompson

Post  747JetMech on October 6th 2014, 3:39 pm

Lets not forget about Mickey Thompson Titanium tube chassis on his pinto.. This thing looks pretty cool..

http://www.hotrod.com/whereitbegan/hrdp_0507_mickey_thompson_funny_pinto_fc/

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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  dfree383 on October 6th 2014, 3:56 pm

747JetMech wrote:Lets not forget about Mickey Thompson Titanium tube chassis on his pinto.. This thing looks pretty cool..

http://www.hotrod.com/whereitbegan/hrdp_0507_mickey_thompson_funny_pinto_fc/


I like the comment by the driver...... It took 4 fire suites to make it thru the season..... That's some funny shit! cheers


Last edited by dfree383 on October 6th 2014, 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  c.evans on October 6th 2014, 7:36 pm

IMO this post borderlines on pure silliness. For a nice set of titanium valves, with hardened tips installed, radial keeper grooves, and coated,,, you can expect to pay $2,350. Even the price of titanium retainers skyrocketed a few years ago during the Iragi War. From talking with the manufactuers, the shortage in titanium began when the Army started using titanium in the body armour for the soldiers, along with Kevlar. My point being that a set of titanium pistons could very well cost $25,000, and that's just a WAG. Maybe more, I don't really know. Titanium is NOT a good wear surface. That's why titanium wrist pins are Casidium coated, titanium valves are CrNi coated and therefore one would have to expect some type of additional coating on titanium pistons, which again would add to the cost.

However, the main reason is what Dave said about the weight of the titanium pistons being heavier than aluminum. Bottom line is that alum. pistons are still our best option, and if you want to make them live in nitrous or similiar high stress applications, you better be getting them hard anodized with moly coatings on the skirt. Let's get back to reality.

Charlie

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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  QtrWarrior on October 6th 2014, 7:52 pm

dfree383 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

You could possible have some reasonably priced forgings made.... Not sure on the quantity required.....my understanding is TI is used a lot in aircraft brake parts.... Like calipers and pistons.


Correction.. It is used ALOT in aircraft ...period...
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  FalconEh on October 6th 2014, 8:08 pm

c.evans wrote:IMO this post borderlines on pure silliness.  For a nice set of titanium valves, with hardened tips installed, radial keeper grooves, and coated,,, you can expect to pay $2,350.  Even the price of titanium retainers skyrocketed a few years ago during the Iragi War. From talking with the manufactuers, the shortage in titanium began when the Army started using titanium in the body armour for the soldiers, along with Kevlar.  My point being that a set of titanium pistons could very well cost $25,000, and that's just a WAG. Maybe more, I don't really know.  Titanium is NOT a good wear surface.  That's why titanium wrist pins are Casidium coated, titanium valves are CrNi coated and therefore one would have to expect some type of additional coating on titanium pistons, which again would add to the cost.

However, the main reason is what Dave said about the weight of the titanium pistons being heavier than aluminum. Bottom line is that alum. pistons are still our best option, and if you want to make them live in nitrous or similiar high stress applications, you better be getting them hard anodized with moly coatings on the skirt. Let's get back to reality.

Charlie

My Bad jocolor - I should have left the original title-The extra 300 bucks for the hard anodized - moly skirted pistons fits my budget much better than the 30K for a 1-off Ti set anyway. Bad clown post
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  DFI429 on October 6th 2014, 8:51 pm

dfree383 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

You could possible have some reasonably priced forgings made.... Not sure on the quantity required.....my understanding is TI is used a lot in aircraft brake parts.... Like calipers and pistons.

More so in high-stress areas, like what I like to call the "engine box" - the structure around our F-15 engines is a marvel of titanium machine work.

Titanium and inconel are used for engine compressor blades.  Picture this:  the outer diameter of the first stage fan blades is almost 35" and decrease diameter with each stage (there are three in the fan).  These three stages top out at about 10,500 RPM normally.  The core is a further reduced diameter, but turns 12,500 RPM normally.  That's some serious centrifugal force Exclamation

Jones mentioned polishing - whenever any debris hits the compressor blades, we inspect & blend the damage if necessary.  Many nicks & dents are serviceable, up to a certain size.  Any bigger and we blend them with files, stones, & paper.  The final finish does not need to be a perfect polish, just reasonably close to the original grain of the blade.

Then there's also ducts, cases, tubing, etc. made of Ti in the engines cyclops
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  DFI429 on October 6th 2014, 8:53 pm

QtrWarrior wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

You could possible have some reasonably priced forgings made.... Not sure on the quantity required.....my understanding is TI is used a lot in aircraft brake parts.... Like calipers and pistons.


Correction.. It is used ALOT in aircraft ...period...

Lol.. didn't see the second page.. Screw it.. the gee whiz was worth it study
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  QtrWarrior on October 6th 2014, 8:58 pm

DFI429 wrote:
QtrWarrior wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Exactly who is going to pay the price required to have them made from billet...?  There are NO forgings for that.

You could possible have some reasonably priced forgings made.... Not sure on the quantity required.....my understanding is TI is used a lot in aircraft brake parts.... Like calipers and pistons.


Correction.. It is used ALOT in aircraft ...period...

Lol.. didn't see the second page.. Screw it.. the gee whiz was worth it study

Some of our "things I can't talk about" use it a lot more then our current aircraft, especially in and around the wings
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  DFI429 on October 6th 2014, 9:08 pm

QtrWarrior wrote:Some of our "things I can't talk about" use it a lot more then our current aircraft, especially in and around the wings

I bet!  Those Gulfstream jets are getting mighty fancy..

I've been to the Savannah CRTC across the way from the Gulfstream facility.. that's an impressive looking facility, even from the outside.

Back at home, we are across the runway from a very new Gulfstream Westfield facility.. also looks top notch Cool
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Re: Titanium Pistons VS Aluminum Why NOT!

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on October 7th 2014, 4:05 am

With a Ti piston I always figured there would be a wear problem between the piston & a cast iron cylinder wall.
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