Oil filter protection expectation?

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Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  paperman on March 31st 2016, 5:15 pm

Assembled a engine and upon break in it ate the cam/lifters. Took out 3 lifters. It was a used cam with new Comp. hydraulic stock replacement lifters. Started engine ran 15 min. and when I checked lash 2 were loose. Reset and ran another 15. Pulled covers and found the same two loose as well as metal in the oil. Pulled engine and just about everything is trash. Crank wasted, cylinder walls are iffy. Im not to pissed about cam as i have always heard the second time around is a crap shoot. I just didnt think a filter would let that much metal pass. It was a FL1A. What will a filter stop besides chunks? I plan to take a sample into work to try and measure the particle size.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  rmcomprandy on March 31st 2016, 7:45 pm

paperman wrote:Assembled a engine and upon break in it ate the cam/lifters.  Took out 3 lifters.  It was a used cam with new Comp. hydraulic stock replacement lifters.  Started engine ran 15 min. and when I checked lash 2 were loose.  Reset and ran another 15.  Pulled covers and found the same two loose as well as metal in the oil. Pulled engine and just about everything is trash.  Crank wasted, cylinder walls are iffy. Im not to pissed about cam as i have always heard the second time around is a crap shoot.  I just didnt think a filter would let that much metal pass.  It was a FL1A.  What will a filter stop besides chunks?  I plan to take a sample into work to try and measure the particle size.  

Oil filters stop hardly anything at all when the by-pass is open.

If the filter has the oil flow going through it, it filters very, VERY well ... how big is 15 microns...? Or, better said, 15 times .000039 of an inch or ONE THOUSANDTH of a Millimeter.
That is why so much can and does go through a by-pass.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  paperman on March 31st 2016, 7:52 pm

So from you rely Randy can one assume that a filter is in partial bypass routinely? Is it ever in full flow of does it always bypass?

Thank you
Robert.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  rmcomprandy on March 31st 2016, 8:28 pm

paperman wrote:So from you rely Randy can one assume that a filter is in partial bypass routinely?  Is it ever in full flow of does it always bypass?

Thank you
Robert.  

By-Pass valves have "pressure differential" starting opening points.
Usually somewhere between 6 and 14 pounds differential between the filter inlet and filter outlet,


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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Lem Evans on March 31st 2016, 8:43 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
paperman wrote:So from you rely Randy can one assume that a filter is in partial bypass routinely?  Is it ever in full flow of does it always bypass?

Thank you
Robert.  

By-Pass valves have "pressure differential" starting opening points.
Usually somewhere between 6 and 14 pounds differential between the filter inlet and filter outlet,


Thank you Randy, many people think that the # is about the oil pressure....it's about how much pressure drop there is across the filter media....as u know.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  paperman on April 1st 2016, 6:51 am

I understand "how" they work I was more asking how does the filter perform in use. On an engine at op temp and pump set-up for a mid level build with a clean engine and new filter would one expect the filter to be in bypass by some percent? Im not picking sheet with the chickens here I just always assumed the filter was a full flow item unless it was seeing LOTS of carbon/dirt. With a possible 6# ΔP I can see it passing allot of oil all the time.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  rmcomprandy on April 1st 2016, 9:36 am

paperman wrote:I understand "how" they work I was more asking how does the filter perform in use.  On an engine at op temp and pump set-up for a mid level build with a clean engine and new filter would one expect the filter to be in bypass by some percent?  Im not picking sheet with the chickens here I just always assumed the filter was a full flow item unless it was seeing LOTS of carbon/dirt.  With a possible 6# ΔP I can see it passing allot of oil all the time.  

Put an accurate gauge on each side of the filter and test the pressure differential at many temps and engine speeds.

We will await your findings.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  jbozzelle on April 1st 2016, 10:50 am

Any downside to running a Jomar filter that has no bypass for the first time starting of an engine?  I figured it would help to catch all the lint, break in material, etc...

Is this a good thing to do or would the filter clog and cause more problems? About to fire a 351W off here soon and was thinking about doing this. Roller cam engine though if that helps...

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  jbozzelle on April 1st 2016, 10:53 am

Lem Evans wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
paperman wrote:So from you rely Randy can one assume that a filter is in partial bypass routinely?  Is it ever in full flow of does it always bypass?

Thank you
Robert.  

By-Pass valves have "pressure differential" starting opening points.
Usually somewhere between 6 and 14 pounds differential between the filter inlet and filter outlet,


Thank you Randy, many people think that the # is about the oil pressure....it's about how much pressure drop there is across the filter media....as u know.


This is why many of the large diesel engines in the industrial and marine sector monitor the differential oil pressure across both sides of the filter. Helps them monitor condition/health of the oil filter...

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Paul Kane on April 1st 2016, 12:01 pm

paperman wrote:...On an engine at op temp and pump set-up for a mid level build with a clean engine and new filter would one expect the filter to be in bypass by some percent?  ...I just always assumed the filter was a full flow item unless it was seeing LOTS of carbon/dirt.    
An oil filter with an internal bypass does not filter 100% of the oil 100% of the time.  That's not necessarily a bad thing; that filter is doing exactly what it is supposed to do by keeping a properly running engine's oil clean and simultaneously making sure it gets all the lubrication it needs under varying circumstances.

Presuming that an oil filter--even one without a bypass--is going to keep an engine's internals clean when a cam gets wiped is asking for the moon...or at least a very, very extensive and elaborate filtration system.
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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  paperman on April 1st 2016, 1:52 pm

I may try to find the ΔP as I have a 90 deg adaptor on the block that may allow for a tap. I never would have though a small filter like we run would save the engine but I was amazed at how much it didn't catch. Thank you all for the education.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  bosshoss on April 1st 2016, 7:55 pm

This subject is a pet peeve of mine. I spent the last 30 years or so in an industrial environment where all of this type of info is readily available for our applications. When I start asking questions to automotive vendors I get mostly blank stares. things like delta P at a given flow. Effective filtration. Absolute micron ratings all seem like a foreign language to these guys. Now granted I may not have been talking to the right people but like I said. If I wanted this info on an industrial hydraulic filtration unit it would be easily accessible on line. So far I have found very little hard data regarding any of our supposed high performance filtration systems. Just for giggles I hooked up my racepak with two pressure sensors last year. I was running my old tried and true 6" Oberg single screen filter at the time. Advertised micron rating on the fine screen is 4 microns I think. My guess is effective rate is around 10-15. All kinds of folks out there have a lot of bad stuff to say about this unit. My biggest plus with it has always been that even tho it has a bypass, it has a built in indicator switch that turns a lite on my dash to let me Know when it happens. When bad stuff happens and the filter starts to clog up the lite comes on.

Anyways with warm oil and over a couple of full quarter mile runs I did not record any more than 4 psi drop across the unit. The unknown here as always is the flow rate but that would seem to be contingent on several other internal engine conditions. I just found those results kind of interesting based on the fact that an expert from a reputable high performance filtration and oiling system company had previously advised us that this old archaic POS filter was restricting our oil volume and very likely generating a 20-30 psi drop. Just my experience on my junk. Results may vary. I intend to do the same test with my new car this year. Using a remote spin on set up and a peterson adapter.

dkp
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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Lem Evans on April 1st 2016, 8:48 pm

I suspect that the answer is....when enough "chunks" get into a filter it will restrict the flow and a by-pass will open.

I was a ride along over a decade ago to Jones Engineering in Washington In. While my friend was talking to Jeff Jones I wandered into their dyno room & saw one of those big-azz wix filters mounted remote in their cell.  
Sam Jones , the father, arrived and I ask him if the filter had a by-pass....he said "if the by pass opens you got more problems than that".

I gotta assume that the relief would be close to a FL1-HP which has an open psi of 22.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Curt on April 2nd 2016, 8:23 am

If chunks are an issue, the filtration should be done in stages. You can keep all of the big stuff out and still have clean oil if you filter it properly. I'm guessing you could really get some people scratching their heads with a 3 or 4 filter setup.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  strokedmyford on April 2nd 2016, 9:52 am


These work
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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  jbozzelle on April 2nd 2016, 10:32 am

jbozzelle wrote:Any downside to running a Jomar filter that has no bypass for the first time starting of an engine?  I figured it would help to catch all the lint, break in material, etc...

Is this a good thing to do or would the filter clog and cause more problems?  About to fire a 351W off here soon and was thinking about doing this.  Roller cam engine though if that helps...



Will I be doing any possible harm by breaking in an engine with a Jomar filter?

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Lem Evans on April 2nd 2016, 10:38 am

jbozzelle wrote:
jbozzelle wrote:Any downside to running a Jomar filter that has no bypass for the first time starting of an engine?  I figured it would help to catch all the lint, break in material, etc...

Is this a good thing to do or would the filter clog and cause more problems?  About to fire a 351W off here soon and was thinking about doing this.  Roller cam engine though if that helps...



Will I be doing any possible harm by breaking in an engine with a Jomar filter?

I've never seen it be an issue and I'm not sure how it could be .


Last edited by Lem Evans on April 2nd 2016, 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  Curt on April 2nd 2016, 10:40 am

jbozzelle wrote:


Will I be doing any possible harm by breaking in an engine with a Jomar filter?

Probably not, you're not in a cold climate and you're using new oil (I hope).
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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  jbozzelle on April 2nd 2016, 10:47 am

Thanks guys!

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Oil

Post  Keith Dyer on April 2nd 2016, 8:57 pm

I am guessing that you are using some sort of high zinc race oil like Brad Penn . . . . . .

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  rmcomprandy on April 3rd 2016, 9:21 pm

strokedmyford wrote:
These work

That "Filter Mag" does not work with aluminum, copper, lead or plastic ... honest.

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Re: Oil filter protection expectation?

Post  strokedmyford on April 3rd 2016, 10:30 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
strokedmyford wrote:
These work

That "Filter Mag" does not work with aluminum, copper, lead or plastic ... honest.
Correct, I like to run them because metal particles is the worst thing you want in your oil system. I run a filter mag with a wix racing filter and bearings look great on a refresh a few times there has been some minor non catastrophic internal failures.
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