Running Warm

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Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 25th 2016, 10:37 am

Installed AC. Florida gets hot!

So on friday I installed ac on my 460. Prior to installing the AC I was running 188-190, unless my foot was in the throttle then it would go up to 195-198 and come right back down.

Setup
Direct Drive Flex Fan
Aluminum 3 row radiator
160 Thermostat (fairly new)

When I shut the heater control valve it doesn't matter if the AC is on or OFF, the temp jumps to 198-200, then runs up to 209. If I open the valve it goes right back down to 188-190.

Seems like that extra little bit of flow dramatically changes the temp.

My thoughts are either go to better thermostat that allows more flow, or replace the water pump.

What do you yall think?






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Re: Running Warm

Post  rowdy1 on April 25th 2016, 11:08 am

Put an electric fan on the condenser "pushing". Add a simple relay that turns the fan on when the compressor clutch gets power. I would add a 3 position switch so that I could operate the fan independently. You would be surprised what a little airflow would do for temps.  Do you have a fan shroud? Get one if you don't. A fan shroud will direct the air being pulled by the fan through the radiator instead of just moving it around under the hood. I live in central FL, if you are having heat problems this time of year in FL. You may as well park that thing for the next 6 months. IT HAS NOT BEGUN TO GET HOT YET! My 1978 F150 w/ .060 over 460 stays cool, 175deg. w/ a two row aluminum radiator and a single shrouded 16'' electric fan on a thermostatic switch set to come on @ 185 deg. I also have a 10'' electric fan, as mentioned above installed on the condenser.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 25th 2016, 1:31 pm

rowdy1 wrote:Put an electric fan on the condenser "pushing". Add a simple relay that turns the fan on when the compressor clutch gets power. I would add a 3 position switch so that I could operate the fan independently. You would be surprised what a little airflow would do for temps.  Do you have a fan shroud? Get one if you don't. A fan shroud will direct the air being pulled by the fan through the radiator instead of just moving it around under the hood. I live in central FL, if you are having heat problems this time of year in FL. You may as well park that thing for the next 6 months. IT HAS NOT BEGUN TO GET HOT YET! My 1978 F150 w/ .060 over 460 stays cool, 175deg. w/ a two row aluminum radiator and a single shrouded 16'' electric fan on a thermostatic switch set to come on @ 185 deg. I also have a 10'' electric fan, as mentioned above installed on the condenser.

No shroud was thinking of going by and getting a quote on a custom one. I can put a electric pusher on the condenser, I have MSD Atomic fuel injection and it can control pusher fan. One thing I also did when I installed the new Aluminum radiator is I lifted the radiator 1.5" to get the fan more centered on the radiator than it was factory designed.

It is isn't over heating, just getting warmer than I would like.

I was mainly concerned that the water pump wasn't functioning correctly due to the difference in temp with the heater valve open vs closed. Condenser has been in the truck for a while and no issue with it just in place. I am running the compressor off of the main crank and heats up whether the compressor is on or off.

I appreciate the thoughts.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  rowdy1 on April 25th 2016, 1:37 pm

I built a cheep but effective shroud for my F150. Call me, Ill explain it to you, it can be done without welding if nessessary.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  SLord82 on April 25th 2016, 3:13 pm

A shroud is very important to ensure the fan is pulling air through the radiator and not around it. As I recall this isn't the first time you've brought up cooling issues and I believe people mentioned the shroud before. I think I even posted some craigslist links to fan shrouds for sale. Don't start replacing random parts until you have the current cooling system setup properly.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  rmcomprandy on April 25th 2016, 4:13 pm

I think, just turn the water pump faster with using a smaller pulley on it.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 25th 2016, 5:33 pm

SLord82 wrote:A shroud is very important to ensure the fan is pulling air through the radiator and not around it. As I recall this isn't the first time you've brought up cooling issues and I believe people mentioned the shroud before. I think I even posted some craigslist links to fan shrouds for sale. Don't start replacing random parts until you have the current cooling system setup properly.

That is the truth, I did have an issue before and I resolved it new radiator, new fan, fan extension and new thermostat. I am going to install a shroud before I make any further changes. Plus that is one of the easiest and cheapest fixes first.

Thanks for the info.


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Re: Running Warm

Post  Super Snake Steve on April 25th 2016, 8:32 pm

I run F-350 radiator with home made shroud stays cool all year long

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Re: Running Warm

Post  Doug Rahn on April 25th 2016, 10:26 pm

Are you using the water pump backing plate between the timing cover and pump? Leaving that off can drastically reduce the efficiency of the pump to push water through the system.
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Re: Running Warm

Post  rowdy1 on April 25th 2016, 11:02 pm

Increasing water pump speed will not improve cooling unless the radiator is actually cooling the water. In fact the radiator does not "cool" the water, the air flow does. The faster the water moves throught the radiator, the less time the air flow has a chance to remove the heat. If the water going in the radiator is 205 deg and the water coming out is 190 deg the motor will never run 180 deg. PUT A SHROUD ON THE DAMN THING.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  Doug Rahn on April 26th 2016, 7:30 am

The same is also true if the coolant is moving too slow through the system.
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Re: Running Warm

Post  cool40 on April 26th 2016, 8:40 am

Doug Rahn wrote:Are you using the water pump backing plate between the timing cover and pump? Leaving that off can drastically reduce the efficiency of the pump to push water through the system.
^^^^^^^^^ Idea
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Re: Running Warm

Post  rmcomprandy on April 26th 2016, 9:29 am

rowdy1 wrote:Increasing water pump speed will not improve cooling unless the radiator is actually cooling the water. In fact the radiator does not "cool" the water, the air flow does. The faster the water moves throught the radiator, the less time the air flow has a chance to remove the heat. If the water going in the radiator is 205 deg and the water coming out is 190 deg the motor will never run 180 deg.  PUT A SHROUD ON THE DAMN THING.

You can believe whatever you wish.
A shroud will certainly help but, won't cure the issue of not moving enough coolant through the engine.
From what I comprehended here, when more coolant goes into the heater core, then his cooling issue disappears.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  Super Snake Steve on April 26th 2016, 10:20 am

I know when I set up my distributor and have bout 12 degrees of advance in the vacuum can at idol my motor runs 10 degrees cooler

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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 26th 2016, 11:37 am

I am going to install a shroud but I don't think that is the issue.

There is no shroud when the heater valve is open letting water circulate through the heater core (heater fan is off).
Temps run correctly around 188.

The amount of air being pulled through is exactly the same with the valve in either position.

No idea about the backing plate, as I have never removed this water pump. When I bought the truck the heater core was by passed with a loop created between the heater core inlet and outlet nipples on the engine. (engine did not run hot in this configuration).

I guess my question should have been, If you have a failing water pump would it have to work harder with the heater core outlet shutoff as opposed to being open?





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Re: Running Warm

Post  Super Snake Steve on April 26th 2016, 2:17 pm

I alway thought that water pump only go's bad when it starts leaking unless it was so old that the impeller rusted away other that it either works or leaks and would still cool the same just that the bushing seal started leaking and you would change the pump out if it was mine and I never had the pump off I'd pull the pump check for backing plate and install new pump and work my way out from there shroud new hoses and high flow thermostat make sure the radiator was flowing good and like I said before your timing can help keep it running cooler while cruising or idling with added timing from the vacuum can

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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 26th 2016, 2:35 pm

Super Snake Steve wrote:I alway thought that water pump only go's bad when it starts leaking unless it was so old that the  impeller rusted away other that it either works or leaks and would still cool the same just that the bushing seal started leaking and you would change the pump out if it was mine and I never had the pump off I'd pull the pump check for backing plate and install new pump and work my way out from there shroud new hoses and high flow  thermostat make sure the  radiator  was flowing good and like I said before your timing can help keep it running cooler while  cruising or idling with added timing from the vacuum can

Timing is controlled by my MSD Atomic EFI. No vacuum.


I took it to lunch earlier when it go to temp 188-190, I closed the heater valve, within a few minutes it was at 210, closed the heater valve and it was down to 190 in 60 seconds, never turned the AC on. This was running 1800 rpm.

What I lack in knowledge is the understanding of the internal water pump workings. What is the difference in the water flow through the heater core hoses and through the engine block?

My assumption can only be that the pump is the same age as the motor. 1970.


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Re: Running Warm

Post  DFI429 on April 26th 2016, 8:18 pm

A couple thoughts:

- The heater core introduces more surface area for coolant to eject heat (temp drop with valve open)
- Thermostats can, will, and have been bad out of the box, like other parts in our hobby..
- Is the radiator confirmed to be not plugged in any way?
- The shroud is more important than many realize or admit..

To your question of water flow - the pump maintains a constant recirculating flow into the front of the block when the tstat is closed, returning back to the pump through the small hose out the front of the intake.  When you open your heat valve, coolant splits and also takes the long route through the heater core and returns to the pump, inter-mixing with the flow back into the block.  When the tstat opens, there's big flow into the radiator for cooling, returning via the lower hose.  Under heavy load, with the heat on, you have coolant effectively having three routes flowing at once, although the path of least resistance applies, preferably radiator Cool
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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 26th 2016, 8:42 pm

DFI429 wrote:A couple thoughts:

- The heater core introduces more surface area for coolant to eject heat (temp drop with valve open)
- Thermostats can, will, and have been bad out of the box, like other parts in our hobby..
- Is the radiator confirmed to be not plugged in any way?
- The shroud is more important than many realize or admit..

To your question of water flow - the pump maintains a constant recirculating flow into the front of the block when the tstat is closed, returning back to the pump through the small hose out the front of the intake.  When you open your heat valve, coolant splits and also takes the long route through the heater core and returns to the pump, inter-mixing with the flow back into the block.  When the tstat opens, there's big flow into the radiator for cooling, returning via the lower hose.  Under heavy load, with the heat on, you have coolant effectively having three routes flowing at once, although the path of least resistance applies, preferably radiator Cool


I saw someone posted about a high flow thermostat, that could help, I know the thermostat has to be partially working as the top hose is getting hot.
When A high flow thermostat made for High volume water pumps work with a non high volume water pump? What is the ideal temp thermostat I should put in place?

It is a new Aluminum radiator so I don't know how to confirm it but when I shut the truck off and run my hand over the fins it feels to be evenly the same temp.

I order a shroud and it will be on by the end of the week I hope.

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Re: Running Warm

Post  DFI429 on April 26th 2016, 9:00 pm

FSU_Bronco wrote:I saw someone posted about a high flow thermostat, that could help, I know the thermostat has to be partially working as the top hose is getting hot.
When A high flow thermostat made for High volume water pumps work with a non high volume water pump? What is the ideal temp thermostat I should put in place?

It is a new Aluminum radiator so I don't know how to confirm it but when I shut the truck off and run my hand over the fins it feels to be evenly the same temp.

I order a shroud and it will be on by the end of the week I hope.

The "high flow" thermostats aren't necessarily made for "high volume" pumps, rather they are supposed to "flow" more, presumably if needed

Remember, a 160deg tstat will not gain you anything over a 180deg tstat if your cooling system is already taxed..  and I'd say 180 is fine for your truck in the first place.  Ford EEC has always responded well to 180, 160 was a GM number as far as I remember.

A new radiator is good news, now get a shroud on it to complete the puzzle, and then narrow down any potential remaining issues.  I really feel to find the problem you need the cooling system complete first!
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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 27th 2016, 3:30 pm

Installed a super cooling shroud today for the 78-79 series trucks. It is 4-3/4" deep, covers most of the fan. It did improve the running temp with the heater valve open. Just driving on a test drive I was seeing 183-185, down from 188-190. When I close the heater valve I am still seeing it raise into the 200's. It drops back down pretty rapidly after the open the valve back up.




Should my next step just be thermostat, or should I also do the water pump? If thermostat, is there a recommended brand? I read a lot of terrible reviews on the Mr Gasket High performace models, seemed many of those never worked or failed at a high rate.






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Re: Running Warm

Post  supervel45 on April 27th 2016, 6:25 pm

FSU_Bronco wrote:Installed a super cooling shroud today for the 78-79 series trucks. It is 4-3/4" deep, covers most of the fan. It did improve the running temp with the heater valve open. Just driving on a test drive I was seeing 183-185, down from 188-190. When I close the heater valve I am still seeing it raise into the 200's. It drops back down pretty rapidly after the open the valve back up.




Should my next step just be thermostat, or should I also do the water pump? If thermostat, is there a recommended brand? I read a lot of terrible reviews on the Mr Gasket High performace models, seemed many of those never worked or failed at a high rate.

Pull out the thermostat and boil it on the stove with an accurate thermometer in the pot and note were it opens. I have seen quite a difference between stats that are rated for the same temperature when cooking them in the same pot. Some open sooner and sometimes more then others even when they are rated the same.






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Re: Running Warm

Post  cool40 on April 27th 2016, 6:26 pm

Pull the pump and make sure the plate is on it.
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Re: Running Warm

Post  FSU_Bronco on April 27th 2016, 6:56 pm

cool40 wrote:Pull the pump and make sure the plate is on it.

If I am going to pull a pump that could be 10 years older than me I should just go ahead and replace it right?

Is there a recommended pump people like to run on this site?


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Re: Running Warm

Post  FalconEh on April 27th 2016, 8:15 pm

If you remove the pump and there is no backing plate and the pump is in good condition, you have likely found the problem, no point in replacing a pump for no gain, or if not in need of replacement. Do you smell antifreeze in the cab when the heater is on (sweet smell)? Suspect You mentioned the hoses bypassed the heater core in an earlier post the heater core could have a blockage, many will say it cannot cause overheating but it can, many people flush the rad with a kit and do not bypass the heater core and all the sediment from the cooling system ends up in blockages in the heater core and it can cause an issue with temps. Try bypassing the heater core again and see if that cures the problem.
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