Firing Order Swap Cores

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Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 16th 2018, 8:24 pm

I did some searching on the “google machine” but all of the info that I found was several years old. So my question is what is the availability of firing order swap cores for flat tappet and roller cams? Also what’s the availability of billet cam cores with with a cast iron distributor drive gear?

Thanks

Justin

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  BBFTorino on July 16th 2018, 10:46 pm

I may be wrong, but when it comes to anything that's not Chevy, I doubt that you'll find anything off the shelf or 'in stock'.
It would have to be custom ground.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 16th 2018, 10:49 pm

That's why I was asking about cam cores not pre ground cams sitting on someone's shelf.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Lem Evans on July 17th 2018, 3:41 am

The 'swap' cams I have ground come from Comp. Different cores are required depending on dur, lift and LSA.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  pmrphil on July 17th 2018, 8:33 am

I don't believe billet cams for a Ford are available with a cast gear, only GM stuff. They can pin the gear at the rear, but I don't think they can make it strong enough to drive the entire camshaft.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 17th 2018, 8:35 am

Lem

Did you do the firing order “swap” at the customers request or did you see a value in it yourself? I could see the benefit to the cooling system in not having 7 and 8 fire in order. It also seems like swapping 4 & 8 would even out the torsional forces on the crankshaft.

Justin

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 17th 2018, 8:39 am

Phil

That’s what I was wondering but you never know what “skunk works” types of things guys are working on or hiding Laughing

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  kjett on July 17th 2018, 9:10 am

wickettoby1 wrote:Lem

Did you do the firing order “swap” at the customers request or did you see a value in it yourself? I could see the benefit to the cooling system in not having 7 and 8 fire in order. It also seems like swapping 4 & 8 would even out the torsional forces on the crankshaft.

Justin

I'm not Lem, nor am I anywhere near an expert, but when I called Bullet not too long ago to order my new cam for my 600+" mud race motor I specifically asked about getting a swap cam for it. They told me that in the fords they didn't see that much of a benefit over the cost/hassle to do the swap and they have been seeing just as much power by using a "stock" firing order grind. He said it will come down to whatever I want, but recommended I stick with the traditional firing order in my bbf.
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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  rmcomprandy on July 17th 2018, 9:25 am

kjett wrote:

I'm not Lem, nor am I anywhere near an expert, but when I called Bullet not too long ago to order my new cam for my 600+" mud race motor I specifically asked about getting a swap cam for it. They told me that in the fords they didn't see that much of a benefit over the cost/hassle to do the swap and they have been seeing just as much power by using a "stock" firing order grind. He said it will come down to whatever I want, but recommended I stick with the traditional firing order in my bbf.

Yep ... you can get whatever you want in a billet however, you are going to pay for it ... considerably.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on July 17th 2018, 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Doug Rahn on July 17th 2018, 9:27 am

I'm not an expert, but I do remember Jon Kaase saying at one of the Winter Tech Seminars that it was his observation that the swap was easier on the bearings and crank.
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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 17th 2018, 9:55 am

Randy

If a stock firing order billet is $XXX does the firing order swap add $50, $100, $200 to the price? Everyone knows that a custom ground cam is going to be more expensive then off the shelf but in my opinion a couple hundred dollars on a $6-8K engine build is a small price to pay for an optimized combination.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  dfree383 on July 17th 2018, 10:00 am

wickettoby1 wrote:Randy

If a stock firing order billet is $XXX does the firing order swap add $50, $100, $200 to the price? Everyone knows that a custom ground cam is going to be more expensive then off the shelf but in my opinion a couple hundred dollars on a $6-8K engine build is a small price to pay for an optimized combination.

Justin

If your running a flat tappet your wasting your time with the alt firing order stuff.

And in all honesty a $6-8k build probably isn’t going to benefit from the expense either.

The money is better spent elsewhere on things like lighter rotating assemblies, higher quality lifters and better valvrain components, porting, better oiling systems ect.
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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Curt on July 17th 2018, 11:08 am

I order mine through LSM engineering. Same cost or maybe very little upcharge for a 2 -8 swap. They make most of the cores for just about every custom cam. They also have some very good springs.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Lem Evans on July 17th 2018, 11:28 am

Doug Rahn wrote:I'm not an expert, but I do remember Jon Kaase saying at one of the Winter Tech Seminars that it was his observation that the swap was easier on the bearings and crank.

Correct.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Lem Evans on July 17th 2018, 11:33 am

Not all cores are the same price by a long shot. The one I use the most is under $500 with 8/2 swap with dual pin holes included. Others are $700+.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Lem Evans on July 17th 2018, 11:35 am

kjett wrote:
wickettoby1 wrote:Lem

Did you do the firing order “swap” at the customers request or did you see a value in it yourself? I could see the benefit to the cooling system in not having 7 and 8 fire in order. It also seems like swapping 4 & 8 would even out the torsional forces on the crankshaft.

Justin

I'm not Lem, nor am I anywhere near an expert, but when I called Bullet not too long ago to order my new cam for my 600+" mud race motor I specifically asked about getting a swap cam for it. They told me that in the fords they didn't see that much of a benefit over the cost/hassle to do the swap and they have been seeing just as much power by using a "stock" firing order grind. He said it will come down to whatever I want, but recommended I stick with the traditional firing order in my bbf.

Wow, seems the guys thinks it a benefit for a Chevy but, not a Ford. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Doug Rahn on July 17th 2018, 11:59 am

Lem Evans wrote:
kjett wrote:
wickettoby1 wrote:Lem

Did you do the firing order “swap” at the customers request or did you see a value in it yourself? I could see the benefit to the cooling system in not having 7 and 8 fire in order. It also seems like swapping 4 & 8 would even out the torsional forces on the crankshaft.

Justin

I'm not Lem, nor am I anywhere near an expert, but when I called Bullet not too long ago to order my new cam for my 600+" mud race motor I specifically asked about getting a swap cam for it. They told me that in the fords they didn't see that much of a benefit over the cost/hassle to do the swap and they have been seeing just as much power by using a "stock" firing order grind. He said it will come down to whatever I want, but recommended I stick with the traditional firing order in my bbf.

Wow, seems the guys thinks it a benefit for a Chevy but, not a Ford. Rolling Eyes

Lem, you just reminded me of something from the old Networkk54 forum that you posted.


If you look at the Chevy and Ford firing order , as a circle (as it is on the dist. cap) it's the same. The Chev. deal starts at our #5 and runs the same course. The swap they do eliminates #5 and #7 from firing back to back. This is the same as our #7 and #8 going back to back. The 351W is a diff. deal @ 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  rmcomprandy on July 17th 2018, 7:10 pm

wickettoby1 wrote:Randy

If a stock firing order billet is $XXX does the firing order swap add $50, $100, $200 to the price? Everyone knows that a custom ground cam is going to be more expensive then off the shelf but in my opinion a couple hundred dollars on a $6-8K engine build is a small price to pay for an optimized combination.

Justin

Understanding the difference between the price of grinding a "UGL" and a "round core billet" with the extra operations it takes to get a finished camshaft tells the entire story.

A "UGL" billet has the lobes already clocked and hardened and then is merely finish ground to the specific lobe profiles.
Those different firing orders which are not available in a UGL require a "round core billet" because the clocking of the lobes is completely different.
A "round core billet" is about a little over twice the manufacturing cost to get to that hardened finished product.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  Lem Evans on July 17th 2018, 7:21 pm

Callies makes a 8/2 swap core that's ready to grind.

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Re: Firing Order Swap Cores

Post  wickettoby1 on July 17th 2018, 7:46 pm

Thanks Lem

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