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501 cube TT engine? Will it be efficient, and reliable?

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jesse
dfree383
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Derek@BPP
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Post  Derek@BPP August 8th 2009, 5:40 pm

I've had a customer call this week requesting a new shortblock. Like I posted in my newbie thread, I don't know the in's and out's of the 385 series engines. Here is what I was told by the customer..I want 1000-1200RWHP with a twin turbo kit. Car is a 69 Mach 1 4 linked, 10.5W tires. Key to it is, he wants to do this and stay right at 500 cubes or a little under. Here is what another engine shop sent me...Before I go sending quotes I want your opinions..Don't be biased..You won't make me mad, as I'm asking for YOUR thoughts.

Other shop quoted:
Eliminator Ultra block 4.600" bore
Scat custom billet crank 3.8" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block 6.800" rods
Custom Ross pistons
Custom Solid Roller camshaft

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?
Derek@BPP
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Post  96Mustang460cid August 8th 2009, 6:15 pm

Derek@BPP wrote:I've had a customer call this week requesting a new shortblock. Like I posted in my newbie thread, I don't know the in's and out's of the 385 series engines. Here is what I was told by the customer..I want 1000-1200RWHP with a twin turbo kit. Car is a 69 Mach 1 4 linked, 10.5W tires. Key to it is, he wants to do this and stay right at 500 cubes or a little under. Here is what another engine shop sent me...Before I go sending quotes I want your opinions..Don't be biased..You won't make me mad, as I'm asking for YOUR thoughts.

Other shop quoted:
Eliminator Ultra block 4.600" bore
Scat custom billet crank 3.8" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block 6.800" rods
Custom Ross pistons
Custom Solid Roller camshaft

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?

Billet crank is overkill. This power level is borderline on stock, 4-bolt'd block. Reliably, a step up is a good decision.

Is he using pump gas, E85, or ??? Obviously, this affect the CR.

A460 block or entry level IDT block
Scat forged crank
Oliver rods
A460's will leave plenty of room to grow, but consider your non-boost power #'s because the A460's have such large runners. UltimateHellHound just dyno'd ~1,080 RWHP w/ Blue Thunder heads. I 'think' he's running a 501 too.

If you're stepping up to an aftermarket block and going with A460 heads, remember that the A460's are available in an 18 bolt version. They have ~83cc chambers. I don't believe head gaskets are much of a problem either way though.

I am in the midst of my own stroked BBF project. My long term goal is ~1,200 RWHP or 10.0x in my 4,600 lb truck.

IDT Ultra block
A460 18-bolt heads
6.8" rods
4.5" bore
4.15 - 4.3" stroke (still undecided)
Mild solid roller
8.5:1 CR (pump gas = 91 octane)
98mm turbo (will need upgraded to reach my long term goal, but this one will get me 1,000+ hp)
1.875" primaries
2.5" x-over pipe
5" downpipe split into (2) 3.5"
3.5" intake tubing opened up to 4" at the throttle body (105mm)

Make sure your customer realizes how much room he needs to fit all of this tubing and turbo stuff. Ultimately, that's a huge factor in my decision to put this engine in a truck. Also, what's the intended purpose of this vehicle? If it's drag racing, what's the goal for the combo? Does he need this much HP to get there? Does he have the chassis and supporting hardware for this caliber of engine? Does he have the $$$? I have over $16,000 in my setup and I don't even have a rotating assembly, camshaft, lifters, ect. Plus, I am doing ALL of the fabricating myself. I easily have another $6k - $10k in parts alone before I fire this engine up for the very first time.

Big bucks to build this kind of engine. Building a BBF over a comparable small block will net you a lot more off-boost power and a lot more reliability and durability.

Have a good day!
Michael
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Post  Derek@BPP August 8th 2009, 7:18 pm

The fuel is 93 octane to the best of my knowledge. I have been told that the factory blocks tend to have some issues down stairs when you get up around 1200+HP. That's why I've chosen an aftermarket block to address the reliability concerns. So would the A460 heads not be a good choice for the combo? The engine will always see boost, so filling the cylinders shouldn't be an issue. For the money are there better heads out there? As for the crank, what is the HP limitations with the Scat 4340 units? Will they allow him the confidence to turn the wick up should he ever want to get closer to the 1500+ HP range? As for the chassis, based upon what he has told me, the chassis will take the abuse, and be safe. He realizes how much money it takes to build a drivetrain of this caliber...Def. not cheap lol. He has not indicated a direct purpose other than he knows he wants at least 1000+ at the wheels..I talked to ATI about a transmission and that was a chunk of money all in itself lol. Thanks for the input Smile
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Post  dfree383 August 9th 2009, 12:14 pm

The aftermarket Block is a good idea on any high HP build as long as the customer has the budget for it.

Sounds like an awsome build Derick, Keep us posted.
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Post  Derek@BPP August 9th 2009, 5:06 pm

Thanks for replying. Do you have any thoughts on the A460 heads on this combo?
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Post  jesse August 9th 2009, 5:35 pm

Aheads will be a good fit
just my personal opion
i know of a twin turbo
Ahead deal
hp is around 2750-3000
it is overkill and dosent use all the hp
he tunes it down but still
that is nutz
i think your on the right track
as far as the billit vs 4340 forged
well i guess i would be looking into a byant
or a high dollar billit one
at the hp he wants and maybe room to grow
i would think overkill would be the best option
also you may wanna consider alum rods for this deal
and yea aftermarket block would be the best way
sounds like a fun build keep us posted
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Post  96Mustang460cid August 9th 2009, 5:36 pm

Derek@BPP wrote:The fuel is 93 octane to the best of my knowledge. I have been told that the factory blocks tend to have some issues down stairs when you get up around 1200+HP. That's why I've chosen an aftermarket block to address the reliability concerns. So would the A460 heads not be a good choice for the combo? The engine will always see boost, so filling the cylinders shouldn't be an issue. For the money are there better heads out there? As for the crank, what is the HP limitations with the Scat 4340 units? Will they allow him the confidence to turn the wick up should he ever want to get closer to the 1500+ HP range? As for the chassis, based upon what he has told me, the chassis will take the abuse, and be safe. He realizes how much money it takes to build a drivetrain of this caliber...Def. not cheap lol. He has not indicated a direct purpose other than he knows he wants at least 1000+ at the wheels..I talked to ATI about a transmission and that was a chunk of money all in itself lol. Thanks for the input Smile

I spent 30 minutes writing a reply only to have my lovely Western Oklahoma internet go out...

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. I am working on a similar build and have/have had many of the same questions. Also, I am good at playing devil's advocate. So, many of my questions are to get your thinking Smile.

A460 Heads: I've been facing this question for a while. I am keeping my A460 heads, but I was undecided on what CID I needed to keep the bottom end from getting too lazy. When I was writing my last response (the one that I lost) to you, I called and spoke with DantheFordMan about his combo. He has a twin turbo 60x, C-headed BBF. Although he's running more CID than either of us, he is also using the C-heads. He said that low RPM power was not a problem. With that said, I am going with the smaller stroke which puts me with a 528.

There are a few combos that are easily making 1,000+ RWHP with lesser heads.

Crankshafts: I spoke with a few of the quality crank manufactures about this subject and was told that 1,500 hp is not a problem with a quality forging. Once again, I have found other builds with similar CID's running forged cranks without issues.

I don't understand how the engine will allows see boost unless it is only raced (no street time).

Have a good day!
Michael
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Post  dfree383 August 9th 2009, 7:08 pm

Derek@BPP wrote:Thanks for replying. Do you have any thoughts on the A460 heads on this combo?

They will work great (18 bolt ones are avaliable too) and IMO will be very cost effective, Compaired to C460's or larger race heads. In fact the bigger stuff IMO will be a little too much.

Your looking at 1200-1500hp pretty easy.........
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Post  Derek@BPP August 9th 2009, 8:35 pm

Thanks for the input Michael. When I said it will always see boost, i guess i should have been a lil more informative. With the engine being 501ci, and twin 88mm turbo's on the front and at max of 15psi, it should be on the gate by say 2800rpm max. Whether it be on the street, or at the track, it will see 2500+rpm most of its life due to the 3spd trans. and 3.50 gear. I'm not real familiar with the c heads except on all out drag engines..Mainly the N/A and NOS 600+ cube engines. Would the C head be a better head for all around use on this engine, or the more wallet friendly A460 heads...I guess what I'm really wanting to know is the A460 head going to be the "best head for the buck" on this build? Thanks again for your input. I'm always open for suggestions or ideas..Oh, my internet always goes out when it will be the biggest pain in the ass Smile
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Post  dfree383 August 9th 2009, 9:35 pm

The HP Range you are looking for could also be done with lesser heads than the A460's IMO @ 15 psi and 500" I'd be willing to bet a set of SCJ's or P-51s could also get you their. The A460s will have pleanty more room to grow. Lets not forget that A460 stuff N/A can make upwords of 1100-1200 in a max effort 2x4 application @ 600"s. As far as needing C460 or bigger I think its way overkill and way more expensive than it needs to be for the goals you have outlined
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Post  Derek@BPP August 9th 2009, 10:24 pm

Sounds good then. Thanks for the input..I'll post up some pics and such as he makes progress.
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Post  bbf-falcon August 11th 2009, 2:07 am

Good reading guy's. Very interesting to read. Keep it coming. Very Happy

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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 12:06 am

Bump for Maverick's TT501 project. Neutral

Likely the First BBF Twin Turbo in 1971.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9vJQrUjM1M

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Post  rmcomprandy June 2nd 2023, 10:19 am

Derek@BPP wrote:I've had a customer call this week requesting a new shortblock.  Like I posted in my newbie thread, I don't know the in's and out's of the 385 series engines.  Here is what I was told by the customer..I want 1000-1200RWHP with a twin turbo kit.  Car is a 69 Mach 1 4 linked, 10.5W tires.  Key to it is, he wants to do this and stay right at 500 cubes or a little under.  Here is what another engine shop sent me...Before I go sending quotes I want your opinions..Don't be biased..You won't make me mad, as I'm asking for YOUR thoughts.

Other shop quoted:
Eliminator Ultra block 4.600" bore
Scat custom billet crank 3.8" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block 6.800" rods
Custom Ross pistons
Custom Solid Roller camshaft

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers   Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?

... for 91 octane fuel and twin turbo's pressurized intake system you will probably need to use about 8/1 compression ratio or even lower

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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 11:00 am

Here's 2023 BBF Twins, 2010 build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx5JxTZsEHQ

Yea Randy, I agree on that 8/1, especially with stockish parts, such as blocks and cast cranks, even if you had higher octane, with these older designs. I'm not talking about the OP's build, It's the 501 with PI heads, I bumped this for.

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Post  hbstang June 2nd 2023, 11:38 am

fyi i would tell the customer to find another shop that knows bbf engines ! way to many horror stories around where money is spent and no results.if you have to come here to figure out what to do,thats an early warning sign!
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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 11:46 am

hbstang wrote:fyi i would tell the customer to find another shop that knows bbf engines ! way to many horror stories around where money is spent and no results.if you have to come here to figure out what to do,thats an early warning sign!

They lost me at 4.39" bore with A heads. Rolling Eyes Where else is the do it your self Big Block Ford guys going to go though? Not a lot of turboing going on with these engines.

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Post  hbstang June 2nd 2023, 11:59 am

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?

_________________

really?billet block for 1200 hp?is that a chevy LS guy talking.
theres tons of ford shops in the south that can do this.
a 460 block or dave block with milodon main caps,scat crank
scat rods
JON KAASE sr71 heads for $3000
lets see,
evans motorsports
oakley motorsports
john kaase racing engines
keith fulp motorsports
randy malik
rich at boss 429s in ill
and many more
DO IT RIGHT AND DO IT ONCE!!!!!!!!
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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 12:20 pm

The guy may just come up with a Dove A block with a Boss front main, with a lot of other nice parts bolted to it, to go with his other two engines, and his SR-71 heads. Sounds like he needs some pistons and a forged 4.14 crank and some 4 bolt caps, and off to the races. He will never get the compression down to 8/1 with 60 to 65cc decked heads unless he can get 70cc dished pistons, or runs 39cc pistons .130" below the deck. So now what?


95cc Eddies or Procomp's are right on the money for 8/1 though. Mad

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Post  hbstang June 2nd 2023, 12:51 pm

THIS POST WAS STARTED IN 2009! YOU GOT ME AGAIN LOL!
these guys are probably long done with this.
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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 1:01 pm

hbstang wrote:THIS POST WAS STARTED IN 2009! YOU GOT ME AGAIN LOL!
these guys are probably long done with this.

I did not mean to. Another guy here was looking to build a 501 TT and I bumped it for him, hopefully so he can get some info. Yes he already has two stroker engines and some cut Sr-71's, and may get a nice 3rd 502. He is up there with Frank, so shipping and exchange currency may be problemmatic, and he's a do it your selfer. Smile

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Post  supervel45 June 2nd 2023, 4:00 pm

91 vs. E85 Timing Advance 100 HP Gain 5.3L!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqfHw5nWbWE

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Post  supervel45 June 6th 2023, 5:42 pm

This 601 Eliminator MotorSport A-Headed TT just seems like it belongs here.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/tv/dyno/2000hp-twin-turbo-ford-big-block-dyno-video

Quite a bit of interesting turbo info from the Land Down Under.

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Post  rmcomprandy June 6th 2023, 8:10 pm

Derek@BPP wrote:I've had a customer call this week requesting a new shortblock.  Like I posted in my newbie thread, I don't know the in's and out's of the 385 series engines.  Here is what I was told by the customer..I want 1000-1200RWHP with a twin turbo kit.  Car is a 69 Mach 1 4 linked, 10.5W tires.  Key to it is, he wants to do this and stay right at 500 cubes or a little under.  Here is what another engine shop sent me...Before I go sending quotes I want your opinions..Don't be biased..You won't make me mad, as I'm asking for YOUR thoughts.

Other shop quoted:
Eliminator Ultra block 4.600" bore
Scat custom billet crank 3.8" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block 6.800" rods
Custom Ross pistons
Custom Solid Roller camshaft

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers   Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?

I figured it was an old original post so, I should look for an older build which would still be viable.
I had to go look it up in past records of a customer; big single turbo in a boat for a 500 Cubic Inch class.
You need to begin with a good strong block ... I used an A460 Ford Motorsport block.
4.530" bore 7.9/1 compression ratio; Diamond custom pistons.
3.875" stroke... made from a 429 truck crank offset ground to having 2.200" journals.
6.800" length Saenz B.B. Chevy rods; other brands are available these days.
A460 heads
40 inches of boost; that is about 19.5 lbs.
Custom Lazer roller camshaft + Lifters.

The rest is immaterial for what was being asked..

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Post  supervel45 June 8th 2023, 1:25 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
Derek@BPP wrote:I've had a customer call this week requesting a new shortblock.  Like I posted in my newbie thread, I don't know the in's and out's of the 385 series engines.  Here is what I was told by the customer..I want 1000-1200RWHP with a twin turbo kit.  Car is a 69 Mach 1 4 linked, 10.5W tires.  Key to it is, he wants to do this and stay right at 500 cubes or a little under.  Here is what another engine shop sent me...Before I go sending quotes I want your opinions..Don't be biased..You won't make me mad, as I'm asking for YOUR thoughts.

Other shop quoted:
Eliminator Ultra block 4.600" bore
Scat custom billet crank 3.8" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block 6.800" rods
Custom Ross pistons
Custom Solid Roller camshaft

Here is my thought:
Eliminator billet block 4.39" bore
Scat billet crank 4.14" stroke
Oliver billet Big Block rods 6.800"
Custom JE dish pistons 8.8:1 cut for TFS A460 with 91cc chambers   Give me your opinions. will this make the power reliably?

I figured it was an old original post so, I should look for an older build which would still be viable.
I had to go look it up in past records of a customer; big single turbo in a boat for a 500 Cubic Inch class.
You need to begin with a good strong block ... I used an A460 Ford Motorsport block.
4.530" bore 7.9/1 compression ratio; Diamond custom pistons.
3.875" stroke... made from a 429 truck crank offset ground to having 2.200" journals.
6.800" length Saenz B.B. Chevy rods; other brands are available these days.
A460 heads
40 inches of boost; that is about 19.5 lbs.
Custom Lazer roller camshaft + Lifters.

The rest is immaterial for what was being asked..


Nice Build Randy.  I "Assume" you went with the 18 Bolt Heads, seems that's a major attraction for the Turbo guys when the Blocks were available?

I know Erica Ortiz got away with the 10 Bolts so it can be done to a point.

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