RINGS 1/16 or .043

guys i was at my buddies speed shop the other day and we got to talking about rings and they service about 6 engines of which some of there own and a very wealthy friend and they say from there dealings that the .043 ring pack is pretty good but its not a ring package for a bracket motor or NHRA class racing(super comp,super gas ,super street). they believe the .043 is something that might make it through a year at max but normally for them they have to freshen up there motors at least one throught out the season. these are top dragster and topsporman engines. but for the bracket racer it best to go with a 1/16 ring package. Just wonder what the thoughts are on this from this board.

ace

powerstrokeace wrote:guys i was at my buddies speed shop the other day and we got to talking about rings and they service about 6 engines of which some of there own and a very wealthy friend and they say from there dealings that the .043 ring pack is pretty good but its not a ring package for a bracket motor or NHRA class racing(super comp,super gas ,super street). they believe the .043 is something that might make it through a year at max but normally for them they have to freshen up there motors at least one throught out the season. these are top dragster and topsporman engines. but for the bracket racer it best to go with a 1/16 ring package. Just wonder what the thoughts are on this from this board.

ace

Standard .043" rings are lighter and therefore work better at a raised RPM if neither ring is "back-cut" in any way. Also, the .043" has less residual tension yet will exhibit higher unit loading to the cylinder wall for a bit better sealing when not energized by combustion pressure.

A 1/16" ring will last longer, is usually adequate to do the job and is also usually less expensive while more sizes are available without going to a custom set.

Didn't the 5.0 HO come with .0625 rings? They went over 100,000 miles no problem. Not race pressures though.

IDT-572 wrote:Didn't the 5.0 HO come with .0625 rings? They went over 100,000 miles no problem.  Not race pressures though.

Yes they did!

1/16th rings are made for tractors IMO

dtimmer wrote:1/16th rings are made for tractors IMO

  

whitefield wrote:

IDT-572 wrote:Didn't the 5.0 HO come with .0625 rings? They went over 100,000 miles no problem.  Not race pressures though.

Yes they did!

Years ago the 5.0's, (302's), had 5/64" - 5/64" - 3/16" and had a number of thickness changes throughout the years.
1/16" - 1/16" - 3/16"
1/16" - 1/16" - 4mm
1.5mm - 1.5mm - 4mm

The latest model 460 F.I. engines, (and FRPP 460 crate motors), came with a  4.0mm oil ring although the 2 compression rings were 2.0mm each.

oh come on, you know as well as I do a well designed .043 ring pack will make more power. Less fiction as well.

I also believe there is no significant wear difference vs 1/16. There is, just not enough to warrant giving up free HP. Many go quite a few seasons on a set.

powerstrokeace wrote:guys i was at my buddies speed shop the other day and we got to talking about rings and they service about 6 engines of which some of there own and a very wealthy friend and they say from there dealings that the .043 ring pack is pretty good but its not a ring package for a bracket motor or NHRA class racing(super comp,super gas ,super street). they believe the .043 is something that might make it through a year at max but normally for them they have to freshen up there motors at least one throught out the season. these are top dragster and topsporman engines. but for the bracket racer it best to go with a 1/16 ring package. Just wonder what the thoughts are on this from this board.

ace

The .043"-1/16"-3/16" low, dwall package should last most racers more than one season.

Based on what I've observed: the .043" back cut-.043" b.c. napier-3mm with a decent vac. pump should get most anyone a whole season.

mine lasted 3, would went more for sure. Not a bracket car with 10 rounds per race but everytime it went down the track the bottle was on.


just sayin

dtimmer wrote:oh come on, you know as well as I do a well designed .043 ring pack will make more power. Less fiction as well.

I also believe there is no significant wear difference vs 1/16. There is, just not enough to warrant giving up free HP. Many go quite a few seasons on a set.

Have you witnessed an A-B-A dyno test to support what you bekieve...?    I HAVE ... on a 650 horsepower Chevy 355 inch small block engine. And, there is absolutely no power difference below about 6,800 RPM; (65 feet per second or so). And after 3 full weekends of GT-1 road racing there is definitely more wear with the .043" ring, especially BORE wear.
The .031" Dykes worked best for power and wear in almost all situations without gas ports.

Even so, when a part costs more money, (in this case rings & custom pistons), it is not FREE. Maybe not much but, NOT free.

rmcomprandy wrote:
Have you witnessed an A-B-A dyno test to support what you bekieve...?    I HAVE ... on a 650 horsepower Chevy 355 inch small block engine. And, there is absolutely no power difference below about 6,800 RPM; (65 feet per second or so). And after 3 full weekends of GT-1 road racing there is definitely more wear with the .043" ring, especially BORE wear.
The .031" Dykes worked best for power and wear in almost all situations without gas ports.

Even so, when a part costs more money, (in this case rings & custom pistons), it is not FREE. Maybe not much but, NOT free.

Yes, I have. So there was a power difference above 6,800??? There is power in a well designed and properly used ring pack, you can't argue with that. Look at the rings a comp eliminator engine.

Road racing and Drag racing are two totally different worlds, you know that! lol. I didn't deny there wasn't more wear, just referring to the OP's application. We all know something that will last just fine for a few seasons of drag racing, could be destroyed in a few nights of road racing/circle track racing. We have a SBF D3 headed engine for a customer makes around 900hp use a 1mm ring pack, has been together 3.5 years bracket racing. Runs 8.60's every weekend out, never fallen off. Leak downs great, vacuum is good, blow by numbers haven't changed since dynoing.

Yea free was the wrong word. An .043 ring pack isn't a whole lot more than a 1/16" and is well worth it. The free part was just referring to the less friction by product I guess.

dtimmer wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:
Have you witnessed an A-B-A dyno test to support what you bekieve...?    I HAVE ... on a 650 horsepower Chevy 355 inch small block engine. And, there is absolutely no power difference below about 6,800 RPM; (65 feet per second or so). And after 3 full weekends of GT-1 road racing there is definitely more wear with the .043" ring, especially BORE wear.
The .031" Dykes worked best for power and wear in almost all situations without gas ports.

Even so, when a part costs more money, (in this case rings & custom pistons), it is not FREE. Maybe not much but, NOT free.

Yes, I have. So there was a power difference above 6,800???  There is power in a well designed and properly used ring pack, you can't argue with that. Look at the rings a comp eliminator engine.

Road racing and Drag racing are two totally different worlds, you know that! lol. I didn't deny there wasn't more wear, just referring to the OP's application. We all know something that will last just fine for a few seasons of drag racing, could be destroyed in a few nights of road racing/circle track racing. We have a SBF D3 headed engine for a customer makes around 900hp use a 1mm ring pack, has been together 3.5 years bracket racing. Runs 8.60's every weekend out, never fallen off. Leak downs great, vacuum is good, blow by numbers haven't changed since dynoing.

Yea free was the wrong word. An .043 ring pack isn't a whole lot more than a 1/16" and is well worth it. The free part was just referring to the less friction by product I guess.

I was just pointing out that what may be true in some instances is not true in EVERY circumstance.
There are a LOT of street/strip/bracket type engines out there which never exceed 65 ft/sec mean piston speed.
As I understood it, the OP was concerned about bracket type engines in this ring comparison thread as to about how it was to be used ... just asked for an overall comparison of available rings in that realm.

It is mostly a given that in a single purpose drag RACING engine where the mean piston speed exceeds 65 Ft/sec, a THINNER ring will help although, NOT ALWAYS as ring flexibility plays a very important role.
An "out of the box" .043" D-wall ring will make considerably LESS power than a 1/16" ring which has been "back cut" to .135", (the friction is not the only difference here).
So, availability of "off the shelf" pistons can also play an important role in the whole matter.

rmcomprandy wrote:

I was just pointing out that what may be true in some instances is not true in EVERY circumstance.
There are a LOT of street/strip/bracket type engines out there which never exceed 65 ft/sec mean piston speed.
As I understood it, the OP was concerned about bracket type engines in this thread as to about how it was to be used ... just asked for an overall comparison of available rings in that realm.

It is mostly a given that in a single purpose drag RACING engine where the mean piston speed exceeds 65 Ft/sec, a THINNER ring will help although, NOT ALWAYS as ring flexibility plays a very important role.
An "out of the box" .043" D-wall ring will make considerably LESS power than a 1/16" ring which has been "back cut" to .135" so, availability of "off the shelf" pistons will also play an important role in the whole matter.

Agreed. Ring pack designing and custom pistons go hand in hand.

So for tools like me, it much more than a matter of actual ring thickness, or even usage. Good thread and thansk for the input guys!

J.Toney wrote:So for tools like me, it much more than a matter of actual ring thickness, or even usage. Good thread and thansk for the input guys!

YEA ... as in other parts of the engine it is the entire COMBINATION which rules.
Usually a thinner ring has less tension, is lighter and more flexible however, THAT is not always the case.

I have personally run both ring setups at 4.625 and 4.675 with no bad results either way. Both of these applications used radial gas ports and relatively low tension oil rings with a dry sump and considerable crankcase vacuum.
It would be an interesting, however expensive A B A dyno test for the future.
The 618 has the skinnier rings and based on its performance, I will probably go that way on the 4.75" stroke engine that is on the drawing board.
Just my input...
Keith

Wheelie58 wrote:I have personally run both ring setups at 4.625 and 4.675 with no bad results either way. Both of these applications used radial gas ports and relatively low tension oil rings with a dry sump and considerable crankcase vacuum.
It would be an interesting, however expensive A B A dyno test for the future.
The 618 has the skinnier rings and based on its performance, I will probably go that way on the 4.75" stroke engine that is on the drawing board.
Just my input...
Keith

C'mon Kieth ... not really a normal street/strip/bracket engine there.   
With a 4.750" stroke, 65 ft/sec is reached at only about 5,000 RPM so, I would say a thinner .043" top ring with about .170" radial maximum would certainly be in order.

rmcomprandy wrote:

Wheelie58 wrote:I have personally run both ring setups at 4.625 and 4.675 with no bad results either way. Both of these applications used radial gas ports and relatively low tension oil rings with a dry sump and considerable crankcase vacuum.
It would be an interesting, however expensive A B A dyno test for the future.
The 618 has the skinnier rings and based on its performance, I will probably go that way on the 4.75" stroke engine that is on the drawing board.
Just my input...
Keith

C'mon Kieth ... not really a normal street/strip/bracket engine there.   
With a 4.750" stroke, 65 ft/sec is reached at only about 5,000 RPM so, I would say a thinner .043" top ring with about .170" radial maximum would certainly be in order.

.135 radial even better

Trying to decide on a ring package , been looking at the 1/6 back cut top ring or a D wall .043 and a back cut .043 3 1/6 standard oil ring and have not decided on the 2nd ring , a local guy told me to use a back cut .043 with gas ports , the engine is a 562 nitrous build , any input on this ,
motor does not have a vacuum pump

Hate to say how long my 043's have been running still sealed tight..............

Does a .043 ring setup require a vacuum pump and or gas ports? Which gas ports work better? Through the top or above the top ring? Just wondering what the thoughts are on this.

460pulling wrote:Does a .043 ring setup require a vacuum pump and or gas ports?  Which gas ports work better? Through the top or above the top ring? Just wondering what the thoughts are on this.

NO ... no pump needed at all with standard tension .043" rings.

ok thanks.

Ace ,
I'd run an 043x043x3.mm ring pack with some lateral gas ports whit your combination and where you run. That would be the lowest drag best sealing combination. Use back cut rings on both top snd second positions. They will last for a few hundred passes.