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Cheap 460 thrasher build plan for bracket tbird

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supervel45
stanger68
the tree man
dfree383
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Doxnoogle
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Post  supervel45 Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:55 pm

...


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Post  supervel45 Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:48 pm

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Post  dfree383 Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:54 am

You can do a reliable 750hp for a reasonable amount of cabbage, just need to pick a few right parts.
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Post  Doxnoogle Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:39 am

stanger68 wrote:Cheap is a relative term. 5-600 hp with a stock bottom end is not advised by many. But it doesn’t take much. Good rod bolts, floating pins, cheap forged pistons. I personally know several engines that have done this successfully through the years. Ported dove heads with CJ valves and you’re good to go. The stock 2.09 valves probably not going to cut it, but never tried.


Thats exactly what im talking. I asked if i could do 500-550hp with stock bottom end, sans pistons, and warmed over D0 heads and everyone told me i needed to buy rods.  Hell ill polish the beams even.  

Now, as far as valves, are the ports suited to the bigger valves or do you have to really port the bowls to take advantage?  I dont want to spend 40 hours porting heads, but if i can just cut them for bigger valves and blend and pick up thats just a win.  Unfortunately, i just havent been able to find much regarding porting and bigger valves.  Have found some flow charts, but theres no indication of what was involved to get to 330/180 that everyone talks about.


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Post  Doxnoogle Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:42 am

rmcomprandy wrote:

In the title it says ... "CHEAP".

So, cheap, good or fast ... you can only get one.

You get two, but yea. If there was any doubt in where im playing, its cheap and fast, though i dont know that 500hp is all that fast...

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Post  Doxnoogle Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:49 am

I will reiterate, im not trying to make 750hp with stock rods or heads.  Im trying to get as much as i can NOW with stock rods and heads, LATER, i will build the thing to make 750-800hp.  If i have to buy rods now for instance, to safely make 500hp, then i want to make sure theyre going to be usable in whatever i end up building later.  Seems like theres some mixup there.

Sounds like ill be fine doing what i was going to do originally, which was clean up the rods, put good bolts in them and keep the thing under 6k.  I will have them bushed for floating pins, not an issue.

Its not that i wont ship the crank, i just prefer not to.  Its expensive and small heavy stuff always seems to get banged up pretty good.

Supervel, theres no pics / vids in those links, am assuming too old.

Sent me pics of the casting numbers but apparently cant post, i have a 0kb max size allowed? Block is D1VE-A2B. Heads are a bit confusing. First head is: D(backwards 'C')VE-A2A Second head is D VE-A2A. Safe to assume the 'backwards C' was a poorly formed 0? Rest of the digits are very well defined, as for the year missing on the 2nd head, at least with later castings i know thats not that uncommon. My F4TE block for instance is that way.

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Post  dfree383 Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:00 pm

Doxnoogle wrote:I will reiterate, im not trying to make 750hp with stock rods or heads.  Im trying to get as much as i can NOW with stock rods and heads, LATER, i will build the thing to make 750-800hp.  If i have to buy rods now for instance, to safely make 500hp, then i want to make sure theyre going to be usable in whatever i end up building later.  Seems like theres some mixup there.

Sounds like ill be fine doing what i was going to do originally, which was clean up the rods, put good bolts in them and keep the thing under 6k.  I will have them bushed for floating pins, not an issue.

Its not that i wont ship the crank, i just prefer not to.  Its expensive and small heavy stuff always seems to get banged up pretty good.

Supervel, theres no pics / vids in those links, am assuming too old.

Sent me pics of the casting numbers but apparently cant post, i have a 0kb max size allowed?  Block is D1VE-A2B.  Heads are a bit confusing. First head is:  D(backwards 'C')VE-A2A  Second head is D  VE-A2A.   Safe to assume the 'backwards C' was a poorly formed 0?  Rest of the digits are very well defined, as for the year missing on the 2nd head, at least with later castings i know thats not that uncommon.  My F4TE block for instance is that way.

Your talking a few hundred dollars more to get good h beams over reconditioning and installing bolts in factory stuff……. The rod are the weak link.
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Post  rmcomprandy Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:45 pm

dfree383 wrote:

Your talking a few hundred dollars more to get good h beams over reconditioning and installing bolts in factory stuff……. The rod are the weak link.

YES ... good rods and forged flat-top pistons is all you need in the short block.
Stock rods will eventually break in engines over about 500 horsepower which rev to 6,500 rpm.

2.300" intake valves with 1.71" exhaust valves with just bowl porting on D4VE heads with a Trick Flow "Track Heat" intake will get you over 650 horsepower. The 470 engine I built like that with a large flat tappet, hydraulic camshaft made 680.

Now, that manifold is no longer available new so, a "Torquer II", Edelbrock will get you near that; and not be as high.

THAT is as inexpensive as you're going to get.

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Post  supervel45 Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:56 pm

...NO! Info Out. Mine Anyway


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Post  manofmerc Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:34 pm

I cant give you any personal experience with a 501 combo .But from being around others that have had a 501 I haven't heard any such talk of breaking crankshafts spinning rod bearings etc.etc.A cast 460 crank even after being turned down to 2.200 is still strong But probably not as strong as a stock 460 crankshaft .But is a cast aftermarket 4.150 stroke crank as strong as a stock 460 crank probably not .Somehow if crank work is out of you budget as well as a stroker .Maybe build yourself a 460 with some compression a custom roller cam the best set of heads you can afford with a suitable intake and dominator carburetor .You might be surprised .Dfree built a 466 with ported edelbrocks and I believe a tunnel ram I think it made 800 hp It is in the proven builds several pages back .And be a bit more realistic any 750 hp engine isn't going to be a budget engine.I mentioned this earlier Performance crankshaft does lots of ford cranks maybe contact him he sells stroker kits also .Look at the classified section of this forum there are several instances of cranks being for sale one was a 4.140 like you mentioned this was 4-5 years ago or put an ad in the wanted section for the parts you need .Good luck to you regardless of your decision .Everyone on this forum wants nothing but success for you that why we gave you some grief with the rods.Doug

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Post  Doxnoogle Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:59 am

Is supervel ok?

Im still mixing you guys up with the concept of building a cheap engine now, and a real build down the road when budget isnt an issue. In the meantime, i was simply trying to make sure whatever parts i buy now will have forward compatibility. I do appreciate the effort however, especially those of you that gave tangible information.

Was $150 for rod bolts and reconditioning the rods for my 351, vs $850 for H-beams. Edit: looks like converting to floating pins is in the neighborhood of $30/rod, quite a bit more than i was expecting, figured $80-120.

For the sake of simplicity and kicking the can down the road, if the block and pistons are serviceable i will clean up the bores and ring and bearing and just get what i get and keep the rpms modest. If not, well, tbd.

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Post  manofmerc Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:50 am

Summits pricing on h beam rods is $594 for eagles and $750 I believe for scat .Calling around might get better pricing .A machine shop would need to enlarge the seats in your heads to install larger valves you cant just grind them out with a die grinder .

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Post  Doxnoogle Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:20 pm

manofmerc wrote: ...to install larger valves you cant just grind them out with a die grinder .

Wait, even if im really careful? jocolor


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Post  Paul Kane Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:01 pm

1) It is technically possible to build a 500 HP 460 while using the OEM-style crankshaft, rods, and pistons, however this still assumes a complete engine rebuild and prepping the OEM-style parts accordingly....not simply camming a used 100,000 mile bone stock shortblock and adding ported heads, etc--that's a failure waiting to happen due to worn parts, incorrect clearances, etc.  We have built numerous 460s up to about 500 HP using factory OEM short block components but a good amount of custom prep and measuring go into those engines.  And, that 500 HP assumes occasional bursts to 5000+ rpm then lift throttle, not 5000+ rpm sustained or beating the piss out of it.  So while not mandatory, aftermarket rods can be a wise upgrade in such an engine.

2) There are budget-priced, aftermarket 460 rods available (~$300 I-beam) that will allow you to build a reliable 600 HP 460.  Depending on the exact choice of con rod, they can be fine for the 600 HP engine, or, you can spend a couple hundred more (H-beam) for the 700 HP 460.  More expensive con rods (for higher powered applications) are certainly available but you do not need to buy an $600-$700+ Scat or Molnar H-beam rod set for a little ol' 600 HP 460 engine.

3) I personally feel that the 4.14" offset stroked OEM 460 crankshafts can be stronger than the 4.14" offshore cast stroker crankshafts.  I have known offset stroked OEM crankshafts to handle power such as 900 HP on N2O, and even ~1450 HP on blown alcohol (yes, an offset stroked 460 cast crankshaft!).  I like to put their power-handling capability into terms like this: If you are not certain that an offshore cast 4.14" crankshaft is strong enough for your build, but that a forged 4.14" offshore crank is overkill/too expensive, then look to an OEM offset stroked 4.14" crank as it falls somewhere in between the first two. I would feel alright building an 800 HP stroker engine for certain customers and use an OEM offset 4.14" cast crankshaft for the build.

We currently have, do use, and may sell separately, factory offset-stroked OEM FoMoCo crankshafts.  They cost a bit more than the cast-stroker-melted-down-coat-hanger-offshore-cranks Wink , but certainly less than the forged steel versions, so if the OEM cast stroker fits your bill then give me a call at the shop.  We currently have 4.14" and 4.15" cranks avaliable and our crank grinding shop can do most any stroke you want.
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Post  Doxnoogle Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:04 am

Thanks paul, youve set my mind at ease using a ground factory crank.  I guess im just having a hard time coming to terms with small block internals being so much stouter than big block stuff, although, not terribly surprising in some ways.  I guess im still looking for a nudge to push me over the edge to stay 460 vs 501/521.  460 is obviously cheapest now, should probably just do some cheap h beams and forged slugs, then just build a nice 521 down the road, just depends on how long the 460 will keep me content.  What cylinder head options are there for stock style valve reliefs?  I know eddys and pro comp, afaik afr uses scj style.  Its also my understanding that the eddys (and obviously procomp) have to be ported to pick up any meaningful gains over stock heads?  Again maybe disillusionment with small block stuff where just bolting on heads is 50+ hp.  

Real question though, what is going to be easier to find used, std valve head or scj?

Back to the stock heads, without going overboard porting, which valve sizes work well? I think Randy mentioned 2.3 / 1.71 which seems a bit mismatched to me, but maybe i dont understand the reason behind? Found a couple threads mentioning 2.19 and 2.25 intakes and 1.71 / 1.75 respectively. Is there any truth to the D0 port being the same as PI / CJ just smaller valves? Sorry for the seemingly basic questions, generally i like to read everything i can then ask better questions, but the sheer lack of "how and why" out there is all over the map, when its there at all.

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Post  nedceifus Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:52 am

I may be able to solve your rod problem on the cheap. PM sent
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Post  rmcomprandy Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:25 am

Doxnoogle wrote:Thanks paul, youve set my mind at ease using a ground factory crank.  I guess im just having a hard time coming to terms with small block internals being so much stouter than big block stuff, although, not terribly surprising in some ways.  I guess im still looking for a nudge to push me over the edge to stay 460 vs 501/521.  460 is obviously cheapest now, should probably just do some cheap h beams and forged slugs, then just build a nice 521 down the road, just depends on how long the 460 will keep me content.  What cylinder head options are there for stock style valve reliefs?  I know eddys and pro comp, afaik afr uses scj style.  Its also my understanding that the eddys (and obviously procomp) have to be ported to pick up any meaningful gains over stock heads?  Again maybe disillusionment with small block stuff where just bolting on heads is 50+ hp.  

Real question though, what is going to be easier to find used, std valve head or scj?

Back to the stock heads, without going overboard porting, which valve sizes work well?  I think Randy mentioned 2.3 / 1.71 which seems a bit mismatched to me, but maybe i dont understand the reason behind?  Found a couple threads mentioning 2.19 and 2.25 intakes and 1.71 / 1.75 respectively.  Is there any truth to the D0 port being the same as PI / CJ just smaller valves?  Sorry for the seemingly basic questions, generally i like to read everything i can then ask better questions, but the sheer lack of "how and why" out there is all over the map, when its there at all.

A 2.300" intake valve will help any big block Ford head intake port a lot more than a large exhaust valve will help the big block Ford exhaust port; after using about a 1.680" diameter exhaust valve. A 2.300" valve is an off the shelf big block Chevrolet oversize valve and a 1.71" exhaust is a Ford Boss Cleveland 351 valve.

The biggest issue is that a stock O.E.M. 460 piston, intake valve notch, is not big enough for any valve diameter larger than about 2.11", (Which is also an off the shelf option from a lot of places), however an aftermarket piston will accommodate that larger size intake valve.
With a stock O.E.M. piston you can use any diameter exhaust valve up to 1.800" and still have enough clearance with that 2.11" intake valve.

It comes down to being all about what pistons you use. The COMBINATION matters; not each individual part.

Answers are all over the map because pretend engine builders who have little clue of WHY something is being done, flood the internet with a lot of misinformation.

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Post  Doxnoogle Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:23 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
Doxnoogle wrote:Thanks paul, youve set my mind at ease using a ground factory crank.  I guess im just having a hard time coming to terms with small block internals being so much stouter than big block stuff, although, not terribly surprising in some ways.  I guess im still looking for a nudge to push me over the edge to stay 460 vs 501/521.  460 is obviously cheapest now, should probably just do some cheap h beams and forged slugs, then just build a nice 521 down the road, just depends on how long the 460 will keep me content.  What cylinder head options are there for stock style valve reliefs?  I know eddys and pro comp, afaik afr uses scj style.  Its also my understanding that the eddys (and obviously procomp) have to be ported to pick up any meaningful gains over stock heads?  Again maybe disillusionment with small block stuff where just bolting on heads is 50+ hp.  

Real question though, what is going to be easier to find used, std valve head or scj?

Back to the stock heads, without going overboard porting, which valve sizes work well?  I think Randy mentioned 2.3 / 1.71 which seems a bit mismatched to me, but maybe i dont understand the reason behind?  Found a couple threads mentioning 2.19 and 2.25 intakes and 1.71 / 1.75 respectively.  Is there any truth to the D0 port being the same as PI / CJ just smaller valves?  Sorry for the seemingly basic questions, generally i like to read everything i can then ask better questions, but the sheer lack of "how and why" out there is all over the map, when its there at all.

A 2.300" intake valve will help any big block Ford head intake port a lot more than a large exhaust valve will help the big block Ford exhaust port; after using about a 1.680" diameter exhaust valve. A 2.300" valve is an off the shelf big block Chevrolet oversize valve and a 1.71" exhaust is a Ford Boss Cleveland 351 valve.

The biggest issue is that a stock O.E.M. 460 piston, intake valve notch, is not big enough for any valve diameter larger than about 2.11", (Which is also an off the shelf option from a lot of places), however an aftermarket piston will accommodate that larger size intake valve.
With a stock O.E.M. piston you can use any diameter exhaust valve up to 1.800" and still have enough clearance with that 2.11" intake valve.

It comes down to being all about what pistons you use. The COMBINATION matters; not each individual part.

Answers are all over the map because pretend engine builders who have little clue of WHY something is being done, flood the internet with a lot of misinformation.

I guess i should make a thread about finding a good combination of parts... oh right this is it.  Unless your opinions are exponentially better than your attitude, im afraid theyre not even worth a well used cat box with the litter removed.  When trying to get the most out of a combination, doesnt make much sense to focus on making good, better, when you have bottleneck, which is by far, the exhaust.  What good is a 300+ intake port if the exhaust isnt even flowing 50%?

The info about valve size limitations with stock pistons is at least info, if irrelevant.

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Post  QtrWarrior Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:47 pm

Dox..
Randy can be a little rough sounding sometimes, BUT
I can guarantee you he knows what he's talking about..
There are ALOT of us here that listen when he speaks...
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Post  Doxnoogle Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:22 pm

QtrWarrior wrote:Dox..
Randy can be a little rough sounding sometimes, BUT
I can guarantee you he knows what he's talking about..
There are ALOT of us here that listen when he speaks...

Do you have this written somewhere that you can copy and paste it? Not the first time ive seen it. I dont care if he builds pro-stock, so far hes yet to add anything to the conversation that contained useful, relevant information, another consistency with other threads.

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Post  rmcomprandy Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:49 pm

Doxnoogle wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Doxnoogle wrote:Thanks paul, youve set my mind at ease using a ground factory crank.  I guess im just having a hard time coming to terms with small block internals being so much stouter than big block stuff, although, not terribly surprising in some ways.  I guess im still looking for a nudge to push me over the edge to stay 460 vs 501/521.  460 is obviously cheapest now, should probably just do some cheap h beams and forged slugs, then just build a nice 521 down the road, just depends on how long the 460 will keep me content.  What cylinder head options are there for stock style valve reliefs?  I know eddys and pro comp, afaik afr uses scj style.  Its also my understanding that the eddys (and obviously procomp) have to be ported to pick up any meaningful gains over stock heads?  Again maybe disillusionment with small block stuff where just bolting on heads is 50+ hp.  

Real question though, what is going to be easier to find used, std valve head or scj?

Back to the stock heads, without going overboard porting, which valve sizes work well?  I think Randy mentioned 2.3 / 1.71 which seems a bit mismatched to me, but maybe i dont understand the reason behind?  Found a couple threads mentioning 2.19 and 2.25 intakes and 1.71 / 1.75 respectively.  Is there any truth to the D0 port being the same as PI / CJ just smaller valves?  Sorry for the seemingly basic questions, generally i like to read everything i can then ask better questions, but the sheer lack of "how and why" out there is all over the map, when its there at all.

A 2.300" intake valve will help any big block Ford head intake port a lot more than a large exhaust valve will help the big block Ford exhaust port; after using about a 1.680" diameter exhaust valve. A 2.300" valve is an off the shelf big block Chevrolet oversize valve and a 1.71" exhaust is a Ford Boss Cleveland 351 valve.

The biggest issue is that a stock O.E.M. 460 piston, intake valve notch, is not big enough for any valve diameter larger than about 2.11", (Which is also an off the shelf option from a lot of places), however an aftermarket piston will accommodate that larger size intake valve.
With a stock O.E.M. piston you can use any diameter exhaust valve up to 1.800" and still have enough clearance with that 2.11" intake valve.

It comes down to being all about what pistons you use. The COMBINATION matters; not each individual part.

Answers are all over the map because pretend engine builders who have little clue of WHY something is being done, flood the internet with a lot of misinformation.

I guess i should make a thread about finding a good combination of parts... oh right this is it.  Unless your opinions are exponentially better than your attitude, im afraid theyre not even worth a well used cat box with the litter removed.  When trying to get the most out of a combination, doesnt make much sense to focus on making good, better, when you have bottleneck, which is by far, the exhaust.  What good is a 300+ intake port if the exhaust isnt even flowing 50%?

The info about valve size limitations with stock pistons is at least info, if irrelevant.

You can cam for that bad exhaust port to help it but, it will not get much better.   I am sure you already know that.
Unless the engine is boosted, you will only have atmospheric pressure for airflow on the intake side.
My opinions are not any better than anybody else's who actually has tested these things and knows what they are talking about.
I give FREE, true information here so, if you don't want it then just don't pay any attention ... no skin off my nose.

Some people who tell you things just are not able to handle the truth when it goes against what they think.

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Post  QtrWarrior Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:48 pm

Doxnoogle wrote:
QtrWarrior wrote:Dox..
Randy can be a little rough sounding sometimes, BUT
I can guarantee you he knows what he's talking about..
There are ALOT of us here that listen when he speaks...

Do you have this written somewhere that you can copy and paste it?  Not the first time ive seen it.  I dont care if he builds pro-stock, so far hes yet to add anything to the conversation that contained useful, relevant information, another consistency with other threads.

All you have to do is read through the various threads on this site..
While he may not build "Pro Stock", He is a past Engine Masters participant ( multiple years)..
And as most know, the guys that compete there ain't dumb....
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Post  Doxnoogle Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:52 am

rmcomprandy wrote:

You can cam for that bad exhaust port to help it but, it will not get much better.   I am sure you already know that.
Unless the engine is boosted, you will only have atmospheric pressure for airflow on the intake side.
My opinions are not any better than anybody else's who actually has tested these things and knows what they are talking about.
I give FREE, true information here so, if you don't want it then just don't pay any attention ... no skin off my nose.

Some people who tell you things just are not able to handle the truth when it goes against what they think.

For sure you can, the hypothetical cam i conceived on the first page had a 12-14* exh duration bias. Can help crutch a bad port, but can also needlessly kill low end without gaining anything if taken too far, or wrong application; looking at you comp cams mother thumper.

Im at best, a novice when it comes to head porting, but i do a lot of reading on the theory, and the heads i have ported did better than expected and the avg. DIY. My understanding is that without the exhaust flowing at least 70% of the intake (far from ideal), any gains on the intake are going to be marginal at best. I also know that flow numbers do not equal horsepower, so theory kinda turns into "voodoo and witchcraft" at that point. Im basing a lot of this thinking off of small block gt40 heads, ls heads seem to follow this rule to some extent too. Basically you just bowl blend the intake and focus your efforts on trying to get the exhaust to not suck (see what i did there?) to get the best bang for buck improvement. What youre suggesting goes against my preconceived notions and experience, thats why im questioning, not because i think youre wrong, but because i want to learn why.

Doxnoogle

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Join date : 2022-07-30

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Post  Doxnoogle Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:17 pm

Paul Kane wrote: So while not mandatory, aftermarket rods can be a wise upgrade in such an engine.

2) There are budget-priced, aftermarket 460 rods available (~$300 I-beam) that will allow you to build a reliable 600 HP 460.  Depending on the exact choice of con rod, they can be fine for the 600 HP engine, or, you can spend a couple hundred more (H-beam) for the 700 HP 460.  More expensive con rods (for higher powered applications) are certainly available but you do not need to buy an $600-$700+ Scat or Molnar H-beam rod set for a little ol' 600 HP 460 engine.


Been doing some hunting for eagle SIR rods and also scat, seems that theyre not produced anymore for stock rod length, havent been able to find them anyway. The 6.7 and 6.8 bbc journal ones are back ordered. Are there other ones im supposed to be looking at? Procomp has some for about $50 less than the eagle H beams. This is one of the reasons i had planned to run the stock rods. I would be happy with 500hp to keep the bill down, the more i spend now makes it easier to justify more later and i dont want to get distracted from building my 521.

Doxnoogle

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Post  stanger68 Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:43 pm

At 500 I would think you’d be fine just swapping the rod bolts for good measure. Below 6000 rpm! Set the cam timing/profile to peak at 57-5800.

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