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Cheap 460 thrasher build plan for bracket tbird

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stanger68
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Post  supervel45 August 6th 2022, 1:55 pm

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Post  supervel45 August 6th 2022, 3:48 pm

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Post  dfree383 August 6th 2022, 7:54 pm

You can do a reliable 750hp for a reasonable amount of cabbage, just need to pick a few right parts.
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Post  Doxnoogle August 6th 2022, 11:39 pm

stanger68 wrote:Cheap is a relative term. 5-600 hp with a stock bottom end is not advised by many. But it doesn’t take much. Good rod bolts, floating pins, cheap forged pistons. I personally know several engines that have done this successfully through the years. Ported dove heads with CJ valves and you’re good to go. The stock 2.09 valves probably not going to cut it, but never tried.


Thats exactly what im talking. I asked if i could do 500-550hp with stock bottom end, sans pistons, and warmed over D0 heads and everyone told me i needed to buy rods.  Hell ill polish the beams even.  

Now, as far as valves, are the ports suited to the bigger valves or do you have to really port the bowls to take advantage?  I dont want to spend 40 hours porting heads, but if i can just cut them for bigger valves and blend and pick up thats just a win.  Unfortunately, i just havent been able to find much regarding porting and bigger valves.  Have found some flow charts, but theres no indication of what was involved to get to 330/180 that everyone talks about.


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Post  Doxnoogle August 6th 2022, 11:42 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:

In the title it says ... "CHEAP".

So, cheap, good or fast ... you can only get one.

You get two, but yea. If there was any doubt in where im playing, its cheap and fast, though i dont know that 500hp is all that fast...

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Post  Doxnoogle August 6th 2022, 11:49 pm

I will reiterate, im not trying to make 750hp with stock rods or heads.  Im trying to get as much as i can NOW with stock rods and heads, LATER, i will build the thing to make 750-800hp.  If i have to buy rods now for instance, to safely make 500hp, then i want to make sure theyre going to be usable in whatever i end up building later.  Seems like theres some mixup there.

Sounds like ill be fine doing what i was going to do originally, which was clean up the rods, put good bolts in them and keep the thing under 6k.  I will have them bushed for floating pins, not an issue.

Its not that i wont ship the crank, i just prefer not to.  Its expensive and small heavy stuff always seems to get banged up pretty good.

Supervel, theres no pics / vids in those links, am assuming too old.

Sent me pics of the casting numbers but apparently cant post, i have a 0kb max size allowed? Block is D1VE-A2B. Heads are a bit confusing. First head is: D(backwards 'C')VE-A2A Second head is D VE-A2A. Safe to assume the 'backwards C' was a poorly formed 0? Rest of the digits are very well defined, as for the year missing on the 2nd head, at least with later castings i know thats not that uncommon. My F4TE block for instance is that way.

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Post  dfree383 August 7th 2022, 8:00 am

Doxnoogle wrote:I will reiterate, im not trying to make 750hp with stock rods or heads.  Im trying to get as much as i can NOW with stock rods and heads, LATER, i will build the thing to make 750-800hp.  If i have to buy rods now for instance, to safely make 500hp, then i want to make sure theyre going to be usable in whatever i end up building later.  Seems like theres some mixup there.

Sounds like ill be fine doing what i was going to do originally, which was clean up the rods, put good bolts in them and keep the thing under 6k.  I will have them bushed for floating pins, not an issue.

Its not that i wont ship the crank, i just prefer not to.  Its expensive and small heavy stuff always seems to get banged up pretty good.

Supervel, theres no pics / vids in those links, am assuming too old.

Sent me pics of the casting numbers but apparently cant post, i have a 0kb max size allowed?  Block is D1VE-A2B.  Heads are a bit confusing. First head is:  D(backwards 'C')VE-A2A  Second head is D  VE-A2A.   Safe to assume the 'backwards C' was a poorly formed 0?  Rest of the digits are very well defined, as for the year missing on the 2nd head, at least with later castings i know thats not that uncommon.  My F4TE block for instance is that way.

Your talking a few hundred dollars more to get good h beams over reconditioning and installing bolts in factory stuff……. The rod are the weak link.
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Post  rmcomprandy August 7th 2022, 11:45 am

dfree383 wrote:

Your talking a few hundred dollars more to get good h beams over reconditioning and installing bolts in factory stuff……. The rod are the weak link.

YES ... good rods and forged flat-top pistons is all you need in the short block.
Stock rods will eventually break in engines over about 500 horsepower which rev to 6,500 rpm.

2.300" intake valves with 1.71" exhaust valves with just bowl porting on D4VE heads with a Trick Flow "Track Heat" intake will get you over 650 horsepower. The 470 engine I built like that with a large flat tappet, hydraulic camshaft made 680.

Now, that manifold is no longer available new so, a "Torquer II", Edelbrock will get you near that; and not be as high.

THAT is as inexpensive as you're going to get.

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Post  supervel45 August 7th 2022, 1:56 pm

...NO! Info Out. Mine Anyway


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Post  manofmerc August 7th 2022, 2:34 pm

I cant give you any personal experience with a 501 combo .But from being around others that have had a 501 I haven't heard any such talk of breaking crankshafts spinning rod bearings etc.etc.A cast 460 crank even after being turned down to 2.200 is still strong But probably not as strong as a stock 460 crankshaft .But is a cast aftermarket 4.150 stroke crank as strong as a stock 460 crank probably not .Somehow if crank work is out of you budget as well as a stroker .Maybe build yourself a 460 with some compression a custom roller cam the best set of heads you can afford with a suitable intake and dominator carburetor .You might be surprised .Dfree built a 466 with ported edelbrocks and I believe a tunnel ram I think it made 800 hp It is in the proven builds several pages back .And be a bit more realistic any 750 hp engine isn't going to be a budget engine.I mentioned this earlier Performance crankshaft does lots of ford cranks maybe contact him he sells stroker kits also .Look at the classified section of this forum there are several instances of cranks being for sale one was a 4.140 like you mentioned this was 4-5 years ago or put an ad in the wanted section for the parts you need .Good luck to you regardless of your decision .Everyone on this forum wants nothing but success for you that why we gave you some grief with the rods.Doug

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Post  Doxnoogle August 7th 2022, 10:59 pm

Is supervel ok?

Im still mixing you guys up with the concept of building a cheap engine now, and a real build down the road when budget isnt an issue. In the meantime, i was simply trying to make sure whatever parts i buy now will have forward compatibility. I do appreciate the effort however, especially those of you that gave tangible information.

Was $150 for rod bolts and reconditioning the rods for my 351, vs $850 for H-beams. Edit: looks like converting to floating pins is in the neighborhood of $30/rod, quite a bit more than i was expecting, figured $80-120.

For the sake of simplicity and kicking the can down the road, if the block and pistons are serviceable i will clean up the bores and ring and bearing and just get what i get and keep the rpms modest. If not, well, tbd.

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Post  manofmerc Yesterday at 3:50 am

Summits pricing on h beam rods is $594 for eagles and $750 I believe for scat .Calling around might get better pricing .A machine shop would need to enlarge the seats in your heads to install larger valves you cant just grind them out with a die grinder .

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Post  Doxnoogle Yesterday at 9:20 am

manofmerc wrote: ...to install larger valves you cant just grind them out with a die grinder .

Wait, even if im really careful? jocolor


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Post  Paul Kane Yesterday at 3:01 pm

1) It is technically possible to build a 500 HP 460 while using the OEM-style crankshaft, rods, and pistons, however this still assumes a complete engine rebuild and prepping the OEM-style parts accordingly....not simply camming a used 100,000 mile bone stock shortblock and adding ported heads, etc--that's a failure waiting to happen due to worn parts, incorrect clearances, etc.  We have built numerous 460s up to about 500 HP using factory OEM short block components but a good amount of custom prep and measuring go into those engines.  And, that 500 HP assumes occasional bursts to 5000+ rpm then lift throttle, not 5000+ rpm sustained or beating the piss out of it.  So while not mandatory, aftermarket rods can be a wise upgrade in such an engine.

2) There are budget-priced, aftermarket 460 rods available (~$300 I-beam) that will allow you to build a reliable 600 HP 460.  Depending on the exact choice of con rod, they can be fine for the 600 HP engine, or, you can spend a couple hundred more (H-beam) for the 700 HP 460.  More expensive con rods (for higher powered applications) are certainly available but you do not need to buy an $600-$700+ Scat or Molnar H-beam rod set for a little ol' 600 HP 460 engine.

3) I personally feel that the 4.14" offset stroked OEM 460 crankshafts can be stronger than the 4.14" offshore cast stroker crankshafts.  I have known offset stroked OEM crankshafts to handle power such as 900 HP on N2O, and even ~1450 HP on blown alcohol (yes, an offset stroked 460 cast crankshaft!).  I like to put their power-handling capability into terms like this: If you are not certain that an offshore cast 4.14" crankshaft is strong enough for your build, but that a forged 4.14" offshore crank is overkill/too expensive, then look to an OEM offset stroked 4.14" crank as it falls somewhere in between the first two. I would feel alright building an 800 HP stroker engine for certain customers and use an OEM offset 4.14" cast crankshaft for the build.

We currently have, do use, and may sell separately, factory offset-stroked OEM FoMoCo crankshafts.  They cost a bit more than the cast-stroker-melted-down-coat-hanger-offshore-cranks Wink , but certainly less than the forged steel versions, so if the OEM cast stroker fits your bill then give me a call at the shop.  We currently have 4.14" and 4.15" cranks avaliable and our crank grinding shop can do most any stroke you want.
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Post  Doxnoogle Today at 2:04 am

Thanks paul, youve set my mind at ease using a ground factory crank.  I guess im just having a hard time coming to terms with small block internals being so much stouter than big block stuff, although, not terribly surprising in some ways.  I guess im still looking for a nudge to push me over the edge to stay 460 vs 501/521.  460 is obviously cheapest now, should probably just do some cheap h beams and forged slugs, then just build a nice 521 down the road, just depends on how long the 460 will keep me content.  What cylinder head options are there for stock style valve reliefs?  I know eddys and pro comp, afaik afr uses scj style.  Its also my understanding that the eddys (and obviously procomp) have to be ported to pick up any meaningful gains over stock heads?  Again maybe disillusionment with small block stuff where just bolting on heads is 50+ hp.  

Real question though, what is going to be easier to find used, std valve head or scj?

Back to the stock heads, without going overboard porting, which valve sizes work well? I think Randy mentioned 2.3 / 1.71 which seems a bit mismatched to me, but maybe i dont understand the reason behind? Found a couple threads mentioning 2.19 and 2.25 intakes and 1.71 / 1.75 respectively. Is there any truth to the D0 port being the same as PI / CJ just smaller valves? Sorry for the seemingly basic questions, generally i like to read everything i can then ask better questions, but the sheer lack of "how and why" out there is all over the map, when its there at all.

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Post  nedceifus Today at 9:52 pm

I may be able to solve your rod problem on the cheap. PM sent
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