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900-950 hp on street engine naturally aspirated????

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BBFTorino
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Post  ChrisH August 2nd 2022, 10:20 pm

i have a slightly generic build question for pros and those that have may be done it.

i am looking to build a 572-598" engine for a 100% street engine - 500 miles per year
4.600 bore/4.3 stroke is likely.

this will wear TFS A460 heads that C. Evans ported years back. with a TFS dominator intake and 4500 carb of appropriate size.

CR~12:1 (100 octane gas or e85)

my questions lives and dies at the cam. i know the easy answer is of course 572" A head engines can make 900 hp. but i drive street only.
i have been testing with a different engine, similar size build, but D0OE iron heads. the spring package is PAC1243, installed 0.050 tall at 1.950 to get the seat pressure down to 220. cam is (254/272 at 0.050 and 0.700" lift). the roller lifters are holding up to this point. i know many people have tried to make the TFS A head Springs work on the street (250 lb seat) and eventually lifters grenade.

so my question is can enough cam be installed under ported TFS A460 heads and 572" to make lower to mid 900 hp. RPM is rev limited to 7000 and its a stick car. car is < 3500 lbs

no power brakes, current vacuum is only 7.5" so this is not a concern.

i am not opposed to a light ring package if needed, but if not then i would stay with a typical street package . and currently no vacuum pump, just a draft tube.

i have seen many builds that propose this can be done, but the valve spring package is always pushing the boundaries for street miles.

So, is this possible?


BTW, current lifter are 816 comps. needle bearings. this would likely need to change to a better lifter of bronze bushing is my guess.

thank you
for any insight.

chris

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Post  Lem Evans August 3rd 2022, 1:01 pm

call me some time

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Post  ChrisH August 3rd 2022, 11:05 pm

i will do that. hopefully i will have some time mid day tomorrow

thank you

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Post  stanger68 August 4th 2022, 9:21 am

There is a build thread from years back in here that did it successfully. I believe it was an A head 557 in yellow 69 ish truck. Claimed 950 on pump gas. I’ll try to find a link later.

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Post  supervel45 August 4th 2022, 11:47 am

stanger68 wrote:There is a build thread from years back in here that did it successfully. I believe it was an A head 557 in yellow 69 ish truck. Claimed 950 on pump gas. I’ll try to find a link later.

That was an excellent thread and very impressive real build, in my opinion also.

I believe this may be it?

https://www.429-460.com/t14610-dyno-results-a-headed-557-on-91-octane-pump-gas-dyno-update-page-6

It does seem to answer the OP's base question depending on how "street miles" is defined I guess.

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Post  stanger68 August 4th 2022, 4:32 pm

Yes that’s it. I was always a little suspicious if they had the correction factor on the dyno a little generous being at high altitude. But even if it were 800 on pump gas that’s still pretty damn good for pump gas N/A. Plus f you read on down there used to be some pics and video of the guy actually using it on street and driving around a rail job at track which makes it even cooler in a truck no less! Love the it. My 557 is very similar but with 13:1 compression and Ron’s alcohol injection made 975 on dyno. We ve tuned it in the car and improved some I believe it may be closer to 1000 now.

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Post  ChrisH August 4th 2022, 11:40 pm

thank you for posting. besides just being an interesting read, the thing i noticed was he stated he went with bushing lifters which is one probably the biggest question i had.

ive decided to go with e85 and give that a try. the dual benifit of cooling the intake charge and the compression help seem like a worthwhile trade for the downsides.

but it seems 8xx's are a reasonable goal, and 9xx's are debatable.

i can live with that.

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Post  Dave De August 5th 2022, 1:12 pm

ChrisH wrote:thank you for posting. besides just being an interesting read, the thing i noticed was he stated he went with bushing lifters which is one probably the biggest question i had.

ive decided to go with e85 and give that a try. the dual benifit of cooling the intake charge and the compression help seem like a worthwhile trade for the downsides.

but it seems 8xx's are a reasonable goal, and 9xx's are debatable.

i can live with that.

I thought you were upset with solid roller reliability issues. So I'll put a plug in for BAM lifters. Also there are cam grinds out there where you can reduce the spring load up to 300 pounds. This should be good for a street package or a combination race and street purpose.
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Post  hbstang August 5th 2022, 1:14 pm

your gaols can be met with the right heads,cam and compression,cubic inch.
a-460 block 4.600 bore
4.500 crank,better quality forging
13.5-14-1 comp for e85
cam 272 @.050, .750 lift
crower bush lifters,full oil flow
no reason to go smaller on stroke,the extra cubes will tame the cam some what.the comp makes it it very possible to get 950 hp with good A-460 heads.imho
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Post  dfree383 August 5th 2022, 1:40 pm

I’d consider using some hydraulic rollers
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Post  ChrisH August 7th 2022, 5:02 pm

Dave De,
my concern is around the solid rollers and their longevity, with spring pressures required to run a cam that can make higher number HP.
i have been testing a package in my car currently, but i know they will not be up to the task.

however, except for the cost of busing lifters, my only question is what type of wear can they take. but i know this is the path i will likely have to take to approach my end result.


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Post  BBFTorino August 7th 2022, 6:37 pm

Something of this caliber is inevitably going to be much higher maintainence than your stock 1974 LTD 460.
Lifters, pushrods and springs need to be checked / serviced / replaced periodically. It's just the nature of the beast.

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Post  738drvr August 10th 2022, 1:49 am

My 557 is a 900+hp engine on E85. About 12.5-13:1. Cam is 270's duration and 750ish lift on a 112 LSA. SR-71 heads unported. Built this engine to run Dragweek. It was a 552 with Edelbrock heads before. A 572-598 on E85 will hit 1000hp easy with a good head. I would probably go with the SR-71 on that build but a good set of newer A460s would work just as well if not better.
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Post  rmcomprandy August 10th 2022, 11:05 pm

A few years ago, I built a street 562, (except it had 13/1 compression and he used C12 gasoline), for a customer with ported TFS "A heads", TFS intake and 1,325 Holley carb, using a large flat tappet camshaft, which made 880 horsepower under 7,000 RPM.

So, yea, it can certainly be done

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Post  cstmwgn August 17th 2022, 8:32 am

Dave De wrote:
ChrisH wrote:thank you for posting. besides just being an interesting read, the thing i noticed was he stated he went with bushing lifters which is one probably the biggest question i had.

ive decided to go with e85 and give that a try. the dual benifit of cooling the intake charge and the compression help seem like a worthwhile trade for the downsides.

but it seems 8xx's are a reasonable goal, and 9xx's are debatable.

i can live with that.

I thought you were upset with solid roller reliability issues. So I'll put a plug in for BAM lifters. Also there are cam grinds out there where you can reduce the spring load up to 300 pounds. This should be good for a street package or a combination race and street purpose.

I'll second the BAM lifters for street use. My combination isn't as stout as you are planning (~840) but much higher street mileage. I run PAC 1243 springs 240/625 with a COMP HI TECH 420 custom grind (262/268 with .727 lift). I put somewhere around 8,000 miles a year on it. I recently upgraded to BAM lifters and they seem to have dramatically extended the maintenance life over the Crowers and Morels that I have used in the past. But as others have stated - you will need to pay attention to changes in valve lash and spring pressure.
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Post  Scott Foxwell August 17th 2022, 9:11 am

Here's a few examples of what to expect; I've made 900hp with 557ci on pump gas, 10.7:1. It was a BB Chev but hp/ci is hp/ci if you follow the same guidelines. My 532 combinations (4.60 x 4.0 with 6.535 rod) make 800-850hp/700tq on pump gas with 10.0:1 and hyd roller cams well below 7000rpm. Your engine will have the advantage of a better rod length and IMO the A460 heads are a better head than most of the conventional BB Chev heads. The downside is the longer runner intakes but in the 6-7K rpm range that's not really an issue. Both engines take some porting both intake and heads, at least a 2.30 valve, all the typical performance valve train, good rotating assy with modern rings and good machine work. Just the cylinder finish can be worth 25 hp. A good oil pan can be worth as much although the Ford block with wider pan rails doesn't have the same windage issues a BB Chev does.
Cams for the 800hp 532's all range in the .700"/low 260'ish range. I think the smallest cam'd 532 we just squeezd 800 out of was .689/.672 260/260 on a 109 and the biggest was .768/.744 262/264 on a 110. (another hyd roller). None of these engines had a vac pump. The latter had crank trigger and a nice Stef's pan and made 825/720, went in s Pro Touring street car and was built in early 2014. These engines were all basically shelf stocking parts engines. Pretty sure they all used Mahle pistons with 1.5/1.5/3mm rings, stud mount rocker valve train with girdles, nothing exotic or overly expensive.
The 557 (4.50 x 4.375) that made 900 was a little more of a comprehensive build. It was a standard BB Chev 9.8 deck so with that stroke it took a custom piston but still ended up with a short 1.45 rod ratio and 1/16 1/16 3/16 rings. Nothing special there. It had bigger cnc ported heads with a 2.35 intake valve that flowed 435+, shaft rockers and big pushrods, bigger intake manifold and I think it ended up with near 11:1 c/r. It had a nice Stef's aluminum kick out pan, Star vac pump, crank trigger ignition and a LOT of attention to detail. Cam was obviously a little more aggressive; solid roller, .774/.755 274/286 on 109. It made 900hp@7K and 745tq @ 5800 on pump 93 with the customer's custom headers. This is in a regularly street-driven Pro Street car.
1.5-1.55 hp/ci on pump gas with the right parts, good machine work (can't stress that enough) and attention to detail should be very doable with great reliability and longevity. A pump gas 557 with A460's built more on the lines of my 532's...longer rod ratio (Ford plus) no vac pump, no crank trigger, hyd roller, stud rockers, etc. should be able to make in the 860 range with excellent reliability and longevity. Add a few things like the vac pump, crank trigger, shaft rockers and a little more cam and you should be in that 900hp range. Your 572 with a 6.8 rod should be even easier.
JMO
Edit to add;
I've switched to Johnson lifters for all my hyd's and BAM, hands down, for solids. No more Morel for me.


ChrisH wrote:i have a slightly generic build question for pros and those that have may be done it.

i am looking to build a 572-598"  engine for a 100% street engine - 500 miles per year
4.600 bore/4.3 stroke is likely.

this will wear TFS A460 heads that C. Evans ported years back. with a TFS dominator intake and 4500 carb of appropriate size.

CR~12:1 (100 octane gas or e85)

my questions lives and dies at the cam. i know the easy answer is of course 572" A head engines can make 900 hp. but i drive street only.
i have been testing with a different engine, similar size build, but D0OE iron heads. the spring package is PAC1243,  installed 0.050 tall at 1.950 to get the seat pressure down to 220. cam is (254/272 at 0.050 and 0.700" lift). the roller lifters are holding up to this point. i know many people have tried to make the TFS A head Springs work on the street (250 lb seat) and eventually lifters grenade.

so my question is can enough cam be installed under ported TFS A460 heads and 572" to make lower to mid 900 hp. RPM is rev limited to 7000 and its a stick car. car is < 3500 lbs

no power brakes, current vacuum is only 7.5" so this is not a concern.

i am not opposed to a light ring package if needed, but if not then i  would stay with a typical street package . and currently no vacuum pump, just a draft tube.

i have seen many builds that propose this can be done, but the valve spring package is always pushing the boundaries for street miles.

So, is this possible?


BTW, current lifter are 816 comps. needle bearings. this would likely need to change to a better lifter of bronze bushing is my guess.

thank you
for any insight.

chris

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Post  ChrisH August 17th 2022, 7:14 pm

thank you guys for taking the time to fill me in on what has worked for people in the past.

for simplicity sake i was staying away from a vac pump for now and keeping with stud rockers with a girdle
since i am looking at using e85 i have some room on compression.

i believe i am just going to take my block to oakley's shop. it 4.5 hours away but i have family halfway there so its a reasonable distance to know that everything is cut right. my local machinist hurt himself so he is having another guy there do the work and i just haven't seen this guys work firsthand.



looks like there is alot of support for BAM lifters due to how they have held up.

do you guys service them based on miles or fixed service tiem, or wait until you notice lash opening up and inspection deems a pending failure?

thank you

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Post  Dave De August 17th 2022, 10:40 pm

ChrisH wrote:thank you guys for taking the time to fill me in on what has worked for people in the past.

looks like there is alot of support for BAM lifters due to how they have held up.

do you guys service them based on miles or fixed service tiem, or wait until you notice lash opening up and inspection deems a pending failure?

thank you

Measure your lash frequently. If a clearance opens up document that per lifter location and re-adjust. If it continues to gain clearance on the next check you need to pull that lifter out and check for excessive axle clearance. If on your check it has increased .003" or more twice in a row that is cause for concern.
Oakley is a top notch house. They worked on a pair of heads for me that were as perfect as I could see. BAM lifters continue to have great feedback results.
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Post  supervel45 September 28th 2022, 1:39 am

I have worked on parts with the DLC coating and it is extremely hard. I would look into that for high end street use if I planned on using a big roller for a long time without as much hassle.

Comp Cams and Jesel are both using the technology. Hopefully other will offer it soon if they don't already.
Don't see much out there for yet for the BBF yet though.

Maybe overkill for a Street deal or not even practical with a for the application "expense" but they do use the DLC to reduce friction and wear.
It is also being used on the SFT cams and lifters.

Maybe have a set of Bam's coated.

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Post  supervel45 September 28th 2022, 7:40 pm

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856973&page=2

Post #28

Maybe Bam does offer the DLC?

You'd think someone around here would have mentioned they do. Even says on the box.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2925113/re-bam-roller-lifter-with-steel-bushing.html

Jezz.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=585315&d=1646318313

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Post  supervel45 October 7th 2022, 11:18 pm

BAM DLC Solid Bushing.




https://vincentperformance.com/shop/bam-b-2010-16-bb1/

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