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AFR headed 460 is a dud

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dfree383
manofmerc
Mark Miller
supervel45
ronski
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Post  ronski October 21st 2022, 12:34 pm

My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.



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Post  supervel45 October 21st 2022, 7:31 pm

ronski wrote:My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.




I don't think that Edelbrock TorquerII intake that comes with the Pro-Flo lines up too well with your AFR heads.

Your compression with a stock 23cc dish piston .030" in the hole 85cc head comes out to around 8.5/1.

The headers you have can be OK, 1 7/8" or larger would be better.

Cam is too small.

Edelbrock made 506 HP with a mild 466 with their RPM/CJ heads and Victor intake. I am not recommending you use this cam with your AFR's as they have much better exhaust flow. It is just to give you an idea of where you need to be Duration/Lift wise for 500 HP on a 460.

https://www.cspracing.com/edelbrock-7167-perf-rpm-cam-lifters-kit-ford-429-460/edel-7167/

How high does the torque convertor stall?

What was your 60 foot time? Did it spin all through 1st gear?

You can get your 500HP with a bigger cam but, I think you will need a little more compression and likely a intake change or porting if it has a major mismatch.

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Post  ronski October 21st 2022, 8:23 pm

It barely chirps the tires when I launch, 60 foot times were 2.0-2.2, I couldn't hold the converter past 1400 with the brake without breaking the tires loose. I was scared to port the efi intake to the heads as I wasn't sure if I would keep the efi, now that I have run it I am impressed with it so will port match the intake.
So I need more camshaft and compression, kind of figured that might happen when I assembled it but the AFR heads were so talked up I hoped the mild cam would work better.
Oh well, I will look for a set of AFR 3.85" stroke pistons and a new cam, I will also switch the converter out while it is apart.
Thanks

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Post  supervel45 October 21st 2022, 9:02 pm

Those AFR valve relief pistons seem to be scarce. You might check with the guys that cut custom 460 Ford cams and see if they can cut a cam to work regular pistons and get you to 500 HP. The old SVO A443 crate engine cam is close to the Edelbrock RPM cam. It was said that on the 460 crate engines that new pistons were not needed when the new SCJ heads came out until the started putting the C460 cams in them.

Your deal may be similar with the AFR's with the medium duration cams.

I would also double check you cam timing ie timing chain position as well as your base timing and try a second timing light. Don't know what kind of tires you have but, that does not seem right at all.


These are not for AFR heads but, they are for a standard bore and they are available. Not saying they are for you but may work on your deal with out boring your block and spending a lot of money.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275415113780?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=275415113780&targetid=1645685074248&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9027791&poi=&campaignid=16730423415&mkgroupid=135815925780&rlsatarget=pla-1645685074248&abcId=9300841&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhsmaBhCvARIsAIbEbH7mSHJDPmrBUa8M2V28rWhUv9VQbPAqpdNtYJ-Dr6kCAH5-PzaHlH8aAmsfEALw_wcB

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Post  Mark Miller October 21st 2022, 10:39 pm

supervel45 wrote:
ronski wrote:My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.




I don't think that Edelbrock TorquerII intake that comes with the Pro-Flo lines up too well with your AFR heads.

Your compression with a stock 23cc dish piston .030" in the hole 85cc head comes out to around 8.5/1.

The headers you have can be OK, 1 7/8" or larger would be better.

Cam is too small.

Edelbrock made 506 HP with a mild 466 with their RPM/CJ heads and Victor intake. I am not recommending you use this cam with your AFR's as they have much better exhaust flow. It is just to give you an idea of where you need to be Duration/Lift wise for 500 HP on a 460.

https://www.cspracing.com/edelbrock-7167-perf-rpm-cam-lifters-kit-ford-429-460/edel-7167/

How high does the torque convertor stall?

What was your 60 foot time? Did it spin all through 1st gear?

You can get your 500HP with a bigger cam but, I think you will need a little more compression and likely a intake change or porting if it has a major mismatch.

I agree with the Intake aren't the AFR Heads a Rectangular Port?And doesn't the Torquer II have Oval Ports?Not enough Compression if it's only 8.5:1 and that cam isn't helping any!!And how high is the Stall like supervel45 asked?And the 2 most important things are is the rear end a posi[Traction Lock]and most important what rear tires are you using?

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Post  supervel45 October 21st 2022, 11:02 pm

He says he is not spinning off the line Mark. Yes they are rectangular port. It sounds like 1,400 or a tad more from what he said on the stall off the brake. Tire Diameter no doubt is the missing factor, though. There is also the tune fuel/timing curve he is running with his EFI. Also the weight of a 1979 3/4 ton Ford is not light.

Going by the Wallace even though it's not real accurate especially with trucks he is not making much steam.


http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

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Post  supervel45 October 22nd 2022, 12:00 am

I would also recommend you do a compression test on all 8 cylinders before you pull that engine apart.

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Post  manofmerc October 25th 2022, 4:37 am

Somehow diesel torque convertor and drag racing just doesn't sound right .If this is a street vehicle I would want a 2400-2800 stall if more track than street 3000-3400. 1400 just doesn't get it . How big are the chambers in your heads ?If they are 85 you need more compression milling the heads will help so much if you pistons are factory with that big dish and .030- .040 below the deck your compression is to low .I understand your small cam with piston to valve clearance a concern but it is easy to notch pistons for additional clearance but any way just leave that alone it is ok .I would get a better convertor it would give you more for your money than going back into the engine for now .You didn't mention how tall your tires were .If much taller than 28" you are killing your already to high gear ratio 4.10 gears would be better with a different convertor .ATI has a 10" c-6 torque convertor it is good for a street vehicle that races sometimes maybe talk to them . Before you port your intake why not call AFR they will probably say leave it alone but if you intend to build a bigger engine with these AFR heads get their intake .I used the same heads you have on my comet drag car it picked up one tenth over my edelbrocks .I expected more also but in reality one tenth was a lot .It was all in the 60 ft.more torque !. Don't knock your engines power it probably runs better than you think .And if you do intend to swap convertors you need to know which size pilot you have on the front of your convertor that way you can order the correct one .Keep posting and we will help you Those heads you have are fine you just got to fine tune every thing .

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Post  dfree383 October 25th 2022, 6:39 am

Put a set of C8, C9 or DO heads on it, stick with a good valve job and single performance spring.

And call a real convertor company up and have the get you something in the 2500-2800 range
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Post  supervel45 October 25th 2022, 10:11 am

ronski wrote:My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.




If you have another use for the 460 and the cash for a stroker build, I think that is likely your best bet. I would still run a compression test on the 460 on all 8 before you pull it down and make sure all is well. Sounds like you did a hone and re-ring job? Did you use moly rings?

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Post  rmcomprandy October 25th 2022, 11:56 pm

The heads are not the problem ... it is the combination of parts not being compatible with one another, which is the issue.

Like Dave said, get a good pair of Iron early passenger car heads with good port VELOCITY then cut new intake notches in the pistons, Use a correctly speced torque converter.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on October 26th 2022, 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  stanger68 October 26th 2022, 12:01 am

The camshaft and torque converter couldn’t be any more wrong I don’t think. It’s not the heads. I agree with Randy on this one.

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Post  stanger68 October 26th 2022, 12:06 am

I don’t know how big that dish is in the 79 piston but if you’ve got 7:1, 8:1 compression it’s going to be pig no matter what head you put on it.

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Post  dfree383 October 26th 2022, 6:11 am

rmcomprandy wrote:The heads are not the problem ... it is the combination of parts not being compatible with one another, which is the issue.

Like Dave said, get a good pair of Iron early passenger car heads with good port VELOCITY then cut new intake notches in the pistons, Use a correctly speced torque converter.


Yep


Last edited by dfree383 on October 26th 2022, 6:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post  supervel45 October 26th 2022, 6:23 am

A stroker will help him in the " must run on 87 octane fuel " and 450 to 500 horse power bit.

He also said he has another use for this freshly rebuilt shotblock. It maybe for a low compression stockish deal, if so why mess with it, especially if the rings seated good and the new HFT cam did not roll a lobe?

He wants to make his AFR heads work and wants a combo for that, for 450 to 500 HP, either 460 or up to 545 cubic inch with a low octane fuel criteria. Aluminum heads will help for that.


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Post  supervel45 October 26th 2022, 11:25 am

AFR Heads 460 SCJ/P51 Pistons and PTV clearance with small 75cc AFR's. OP has taller 85cc chambers. Picture/Notes Post #370 and #371. Thought I throw this in here for anyone else with the AFR heads that may come across this thread.

https://www.460ford.com/threads/new-afr-bbf-head.162221/page-19

https://www.460ford.com/threads/new-afr-bbf-head.162221/page-19#lg=thread-162221&slide=1

And 460 SCJ/P51 standard 15cc dish piston Listing part #.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic517030#overview

9.55/1 compression at .005" in the hole.

Not very cost effective compared to notching the Forged Wiseco's with included ring's/pins and having 10.37/1 compression though. Don't believe the Icon's come with pins and rings.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wis-pts530a3

Maybe the way out of the notching delima though with a 466 to 477 factory crank/rod combo or just a touch on the radial edge. Sad

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Post  dfree383 October 26th 2022, 1:20 pm

Am I missing something of does this build not have stock 1979 bottom end with a freshen up????
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Post  supervel45 October 26th 2022, 7:20 pm

dfree383 wrote:Am I missing something of does this build not have stock 1979 bottom end with a freshen up????


That's about what I got out of his first post. It has a Summit 204/214 RV cam with 1 3/4" Hedman headers and a Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 fuel injection system good up to 600 HP.

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Post  ronski October 26th 2022, 11:45 pm

supervel45 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:Am I missing something of does this build not have stock 1979 bottom end with a freshen up????


That's about what I got out of his first post. It has a Summit 204/214 RV cam with 1 3/4" Hedman headers and a Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 fuel injection system good up to 600 HP.

Sorry been farming and moving heated canola and didnt have much to add.

Yes it's a stock bottom end and I know it's a poor combination. My kid wants a 460 in his 78 shortbox instead of the 351M so he can use this shortblock and camshaft with a set of D2oe-ab heads and I will start over and use my AFRs and EFI.
The tires are transforce 16.5/9.5 with an OD of 30.6" (it's a restoration of the truck my late father bought new. I want it to look the same but faster and modern convenience).  it should boil those tires and have poor e.t.s but a much better trap speed?
I will do a compression test to be sure but figure I should start over and build it as a package around the heads?  It's a sunny day run around farm truck and I don't need a rocket but with 500 hp it should be into the 14's and still well mannered on the street? Just wanted to be sure it was the mismatched combination not a tuning issue. I have tried timing from 20-33 degrees and the air fuel ratio from 12.5 to 14.5 and I doesn't change performance much. I figure the cam/converter and compression are holding it back. (deck height measured at 0.019" so compression isn't quite as bad as it could be)
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

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Post  supervel45 October 27th 2022, 12:28 am

I think the combination you have right now should be in the 15's if it is running right and making over 400HP. The combo you have now is not bad for a working and ride around rig if your are not looking just for 1/4 mile e/t's and running 87 octane fuel. Convertor, cam and compression in that order is what you need more of if you want to go faster. I am not a big fan of the 545's but in a heavy truck and for what you are wanting to do, I think it is the best solution.

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Post  ronski October 27th 2022, 9:58 pm

supervel45 wrote:I think the combination you have right now should be in the 15's if it is running right and making over 400HP. The combo you have now is not bad for a working and ride around rig if your are not looking just for 1/4 mile e/t's and running 87 octane fuel. Convertor, cam and compression in that order is what you need more of if you want to go faster. I am not a big fan of the 545's but in a heavy truck and for what you are wanting to do, I think it is the best solution.

What don't you like about the 545? I was thinking of a 521 4.3 stroke instead of 4.5 just because of the skirts dropping so low. I have a D3 block and a Dove-A block stripped down but would have to pull a motor and tear down to get a D9 longer cylinder block, had planned on the Dove-A block just because I am lazy.
Tempting to try just a converter but the kid needs a 460 and this would definately be faster (still get a better converter though). Converter/Camshaft/Compression/Cubic Inches

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Post  supervel45 October 27th 2022, 10:53 pm

I just like the rod ratio of the 521 better especially in a D0VE or D1 block. If you had another D9 block the 545 would get you a little more torque to move a heavy 3/4 ton was my thought. It would help with your 3.5 gears and you would need less stall convertor and compression. The Pro Flo 4 limits you to 600HP so you can't get to carried away, plus your other stipulations will likely keep you in the mid 500HP range anyway. I think traction is going to be your major handicap for good E/T's when you up the power also. I am suprized it is not now.

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Post  The Mad Porter October 31st 2022, 11:15 pm

ronski wrote:My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.



The AFR heads have a roval port on standard port centers. The T2 and RPM intakes align quite well.
We've built dozens upon dozens of AFR headed engines of various displacements with the T2 intake as well as the RPM.
All made outstanding power.

Not your heads but rather your combo.

Assuming proper fuel and spark maps with total timing of about 30 to 31* which you would do well to double check.

1400 stall diesel convertor is KILLING your 60 foot times. Unless your spark map offers an aggressive timing map the bottom end is going to be soft
and the map isn't going to allow TT for 1100 rpm or more. LAZY as your 60' show.

The Torker 2 works very well on the AFR heads but is completely UNSUITABLE in this application.

8 to 1 static is not helping matters even with that very short generic 204 / 214 cam.

Properly tuned you should still be making 400+ hp...

A regular fueled 521 with AFR heads, RPM intake, 219 / 233 HFT cam will make 567 HP and 650 torque. A 545 even more.


Sort out your combo, tune it properly and get a proper convertor your current of which is still too tight for a stroker.
A lopey cam with that tight convertor is going to tug at the drive line and be miserable at idle in gear.


As many others here have stated. It is all about the combination.
One can have a great parts package but if the tune is off... Game over.


Scotty Jay / Parkland-RHP
Tacoma Wa.
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Post  ford141 November 1st 2022, 9:09 am

Just as a comparison, I have exactly the same truck. 79 F250 2wd with 3.55 gears. About 10 years ago I ran it at the track and it put down a 15.2@94 and I had to pedal it off the line because it spun. It also ran out of fuel halfway down the track (bad fuel pump at the time) cause me to have to pedal it again while it surged a few times. My 460 is a completely stock bottom end with some port work on the D3 heads per RHP website (did them myself many years ago), Performer (not RPM) intake, Summit 750 carb. Cam is an older Lunati Voodoo, their smallest at the time 61600 - 503 524 lift 250-256 adv dir. C6 has a TCI Saturday night Special converter (probably 2000 stall). Cheap Hedman headers, 2.5" dual exhaust. I know it's easily in the lower 14s with better traction and a better fuel pump.

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Post  ronski November 9th 2022, 2:54 pm

The Mad Porter wrote:
ronski wrote:My AFR headed 460 is a dud. The truck runs 16.8 @ 85 mph and I know the combination is mismatched
but I expected a bit more than that. 1979 F250 2wd regular cab, 3.55 gears, C6.
It started as a stock rebuild then covid hit and I figured I would build a stroker but the only thing that
wasn’t backordered forever were the heads and I had to get the truck finished and driving for this
summer. Here is what went together.
Stock 1979 460, new rings and bearings, summit 3500 camshaft (204&214 degrees at .050, .486&.512”
lift), hedman 1-¾ headers, edelbrock pro-flo 4 efi, AFR 280 85cc heads, C6 with diesel torque converter
(local transmission shop said that would work well with the planned 545 before I settled for the stock
short block).

I am assuming it is the mild camshaft but it could be the headers, pro-flo efi, torque converter, or???
I can try for a bit larger camshaft but with the AFR heads and no notches in the pistons I don’t know if
that will be enough. I would like 450-500 horsepower at the crank and it must run on 87 octane fuel.
If I have to start over with a new block that’s fine. I have another use for this short block and have other 460’s to rebuild. I would prefer to keep the stock crank and rods so will buy proper pistons
and have them notched for the 460 but if I need to build a stroker to get my numbers that’s not a
financial problem just more parts to find.



The AFR heads have a roval port on standard port centers. The T2 and RPM intakes align quite well.
We've built dozens upon dozens of AFR headed engines of various displacements with the T2 intake as well as the RPM.
All made outstanding power.

Not your heads but rather your combo.

Assuming proper fuel and spark maps with total timing of about 30 to 31* which you would do well to double check.

1400 stall diesel convertor is KILLING your 60 foot times. Unless your spark map offers an aggressive timing map the bottom end is going to be soft
and the map isn't going to allow TT for 1100 rpm or more. LAZY as your 60' show.

The Torker 2 works very well on the AFR heads but is completely UNSUITABLE in this application.

8 to 1 static is not helping matters even with that very short generic 204 / 214 cam.

Properly tuned you should still be making 400+ hp...

A regular fueled 521 with AFR heads, RPM intake, 219 / 233 HFT cam will make 567 HP and 650 torque. A 545 even more.


Sort out your combo, tune it properly and get a proper convertor your current of which is still too tight for a stroker.
A lopey cam with that tight convertor is going to tug at the drive line and be miserable at idle in gear.


As many others here have stated. It is all about the combination.
One can have a great parts package but if the tune is off... Game over.


Scotty Jay / Parkland-RHP
Tacoma Wa.

Thanks Scotty, If I go with your Tow Pack stroker combo in another block can I make the torker intake manifold and heads work well? I have another truck waiting for a stock 460 so this short block won't go to waste. Will your hydraulic flat tappet camshaft work without switching springs for break-in? I am running the hydraulic roller spring without the inner spring in these heads now and if I have to switch springs after break-in I may just go with a solid roller lifter hydraulic cam combo from you.
Thanks

ronski

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Join date : 2021-04-21

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