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Lifters and Oil Pressure

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Lifters and Oil Pressure Empty Lifters and Oil Pressure

Post  460bronc February 2nd 2023, 9:20 pm

Hi Guys.  I'm a new member but been searching and reading this forum for a while.  I've found a range of info about 460 oil pressure the common thing seems to be some have 30+lb and some (like me) have 10.  Also heard 10lb for every 1000 revs is OK but I get nervous doing 2500 revs with 25lb pressure.  

Motor info.  I imported the motor as a freshly built crate motor.  Build sheet says its a 1979 460 block, procomp heads (yep read stuff on them), roller cam duration @50 is 224/230 and 553 lift, 112 lobe sep.  Gaterman hydraulic roller lifters and Procomp roller rockers.  Rod bearing clearance is .002 and main bearing clearance .003.  I think thats the main stuff you guys need to know up front.  

My problem is the oil pressure has been low right from first start of the engine.  Engine break in was as per instructions via my local mechanic who I worked with to get the motor installed.  When I say low if I start from cold I'm at about 60lb (manual guage with a braided oil line reading from the rear of the block) as she warms up that slowly drops to full operating temp at idle of about 700revs pressure is about 10 - 11lb.  Rev pressure is about equivalent to 10lb per 1000 revs so 2500 revs = about 25lb pressure.  Its been pretty constant since day 1 despite changing oil weights 10/40, 20/40 etc and changing to a high volume oil pump.  

Second thing is one rocker has tapped off and on a little since I first started it (seems to be one of the back right hand side rockers when facing the motor) .  It does seem to come and go a bit and is not just at idle but can also happen when at cruising speed.  My mechanic tried to reset without much luck.  In doing that he did say the motor is pushing a lot of oil to the rocker gear.  I rang the engine builder who advised the Gaterman lifters are a bit prone to pushing a lot of oil to the top of the motor.  He offered to send a new set but at that time I had a heap of other car related stuff to sort so did not take him up on it.  Perhaps I should have as its not gone away.

So my question is, are these Gaterman lifters the possible cause (or been known to be the cause) of relatively low oil pressure?  Can they be a bit rattly.  I've read posts regarding the oil feeds in these and other lifters and just wonder if 2 feeds running parrallel to the block in a 460 ford is diverting a lot of oil pressure to the heads?  If these are known to cause this what's a better hydraulic roller lifter to change to?  And if not where else do I look?          

Look forward to your replys.  Sorry I'm not a seasoned ford guy but do love the big block ford in the Bronco.  I'd just like a bit of peace of mind as well as to understand why the oil pressure variance?  Oh final thing.  Yes it has the 90 degree angled oil filter housing and a Z87A filter.

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Post  rmcomprandy February 3rd 2023, 1:45 pm

460bronc wrote:Hi Guys.  I'm a new member but been searching and reading this forum for a while.  I've found a range of info about 460 oil pressure the common thing seems to be some have 30+lb and some (like me) have 10.  Also heard 10lb for every 1000 revs is OK but I get nervous doing 2500 revs with 25lb pressure.  

Motor info.  I imported the motor as a freshly built crate motor.  Build sheet says its a 1979 460 block, procomp heads (yep read stuff on them), roller cam duration @50 is 224/230 and 553 lift, 112 lobe sep.  Gaterman hydraulic roller lifters and Procomp roller rockers.  Rod bearing clearance is .002 and main bearing clearance .003.  I think thats the main stuff you guys need to know up front.  

My problem is the oil pressure has been low right from first start of the engine.  Engine break in was as per instructions via my local mechanic who I worked with to get the motor installed.  When I say low if I start from cold I'm at about 60lb (manual guage with a braided oil line reading from the rear of the block) as she warms up that slowly drops to full operating temp at idle of about 700revs pressure is about 10 - 11lb.  Rev pressure is about equivalent to 10lb per 1000 revs so 2500 revs = about 25lb pressure.  Its been pretty constant since day 1 despite changing oil weights 10/40, 20/40 etc and changing to a high volume oil pump.  

Second thing is one rocker has tapped off and on a little since I first started it (seems to be one of the back right hand side rockers when facing the motor) .  It does seem to come and go a bit and is not just at idle but can also happen when at cruising speed.  My mechanic tried to reset without much luck.  In doing that he did say the motor is pushing a lot of oil to the rocker gear.  I rang the engine builder who advised the Gaterman lifters are a bit prone to pushing a lot of oil to the top of the motor.  He offered to send a new set but at that time I had a heap of other car related stuff to sort so did not take him up on it.  Perhaps I should have as its not gone away.

So my question is, are these Gaterman lifters the possible cause (or been known to be the cause) of relatively low oil pressure?  Can they be a bit rattly.  I've read posts regarding the oil feeds in these and other lifters and just wonder if 2 feeds running parrallel to the block in a 460 ford is diverting a lot of oil pressure to the heads?  If these are known to cause this what's a better hydraulic roller lifter to change to?  And if not where else do I look?          

Look forward to your replys.  Sorry I'm not a seasoned ford guy but do love the big block ford in the Bronco.  I'd just like a bit of peace of mind as well as to understand why the oil pressure variance?  Oh final thing.  Yes it has the 90 degree angled oil filter housing and a Z87A filter.

With Hydraulic lifters of any type, it does not matter which direction their oil holes are facing because they are part of an annulus which goes all the way around the lifter body.
If it is a RACING hydraulic roller lifter then the cutout for a larger roller wheel, (regular street/strip hydraulic roller lifters have a full body around the wheel), may be uncovering the oil gallery when that lifter is at maximum lift

Or, something else is the cause of your oil pressure issue.

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Post  dfree383 February 3rd 2023, 2:22 pm

Who’s Guterman?!?!

Have you checked the bearings?

Might try restricted pushrods and see if the top end is over oiling, with the selection of parts you mentioned it could be almost anything.
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Post  460bronc February 3rd 2023, 3:57 pm

OK thanks very much for your comments.

Sorry "Gutterman" is Gaterman lifters. There are good and bad reviews online as is typical. A couple of comments were that they send a fair amount of oil to the top of the engine but there was no comment on if that also affected oil pressure.

Re bearings - Yes bearings were checked when the new oil pump was fitted.

Re restricted pushrods - read about these but wanted to check if anyone had the same low oil pressure with these lifters. If the answer was yes then I'd consider changing the lifters rather than change the pushrods. The off and on tapping is leaning me toward the lifters but really was looking for anyone with experience with a similar combo.

Re lifters - Thanks for the info re oil feeds. I read another forum about differing brands, oil feed location and single or double feeds, and possible link to over oiling the top but nothing conclusive re use of Gaterman lifters in BBF's. I didn't think .553 of lift would be enough to expose the oil gallery but I dont know enough about BBF's to know if that might be my problem.

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Post  rmcomprandy February 4th 2023, 10:35 am

460bronc wrote:OK thanks very much for your comments.  


Re lifters - Thanks for the info re oil feeds.  I read another forum about differing brands, oil feed location and single or double feeds, and possible link to over oiling the top but nothing conclusive re use of Gaterman lifters in BBF's.  I didn't think .553 of lift would be enough to expose the oil gallery but I dont know enough about BBF's to know if that might be my problem.

The amount of Max lift does not matter because the cam lobe max lift is always near the camshaft main journal diameter; only the base circle is different.

If you are going to get new lifters, I would recommend the "Johnson Lifters - by Specialty Engine Components", (NOT Johnson Hy-Lift).
They are a bit pricey but, they are the best in the world.

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Post  69F100 February 4th 2023, 5:51 pm

460bronc wrote:OK thanks very much for your comments.  

Sorry "Gutterman" is Gaterman lifters.  There are good and bad reviews online as is typical.  A couple of comments were that they send a fair amount of oil to the top of the engine but there was no comment on if that also affected oil pressure.

Re bearings - Yes bearings were checked when the new oil pump was fitted.
 
Re restricted pushrods - read about these but wanted to check if anyone had the same low oil pressure with these lifters.  If the answer was yes then I'd consider changing the lifters rather than change the pushrods. The off and on tapping is leaning me toward the lifters but really was looking for anyone with experience with a similar combo.    

Re lifters - Thanks for the info re oil feeds.  I read another forum about differing brands, oil feed location and single or double feeds, and possible link to over oiling the top but nothing conclusive re use of Gaterman lifters in BBF's.  I didn't think .553 of lift would be enough to expose the oil gallery but I dont know enough about BBF's to know if that might be my problem.

I have restrictor push rods in my 552 bbf when I changed to them my oil pressure l didn't see any change in it
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Post  460bronc February 4th 2023, 9:22 pm

Lift and cam - yep that makes perfect sense. Never thought about how you derive lift from the cam but makes perfect sense re base circle is different and actual lobe height is limited. So if I was gonna loose pressure it would be the lifter dropping too far in the lifter bore (reduced base circle) rather than lifting it out of the lifter bore? Also thanks for the info on the option for lifters. I'll check them out.

Re restricted pushrods - That's interesting. So possibly not the best solution option for me assuming the theory that I'm loosing pressure via the lifter is the right one.

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Post  supervel45 February 4th 2023, 10:44 pm

Maybe not this drastic but, maybe something like this in a standard volume oil pump?

Does the oil pressure go up to 50Psi at 5,000 rpm now?

As for as the noise did you double check for the .030" or half turn down from zero on all the lifters yet, as recommended by Gaterman?


https://www.moroso.com/high-pressure-oil-pump-relief-spring22850/

^ That spring is for a 351C, I just used it as an example.

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Post  460bronc February 7th 2023, 3:35 pm

Hi there thanks for your comments.

Re oil pressure at 5000 rpm. Don't know but will check. It definitely rises with revs as you'd kinda expect under a normal situation.

Re lifter settings - yes initial set up was as per breakin instructions along with attempts to reset after that. If it was constant it would be easier to diagnose but it can come and go. Sometimes at idle (10 - 12lb oil pressure) and sometimes at 2200 revs (appx 25lb oil pressure). Not a bad tap and seems to be improving the more I drive the car but its still there sometimes.

Note I've not put many miles on this newly built engine so not sure if things are still "settling in". Full new build including pistons, rings, bearings etc, etc. Only other point is the motor sat for about 3 - 4 months before start up while we prepped the car for it. Cant see that being an issue but thought I'd mention it.

I'm going to drop the oil and filter and check it out next day or so and see if there is any improvement. Also this motor is in a Bronco so I am using a Ford 90 degree oil filter housing to get filter clearance and a Ryco Z87A filter so not sure if that combo plays any part in it?

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Post  Kobelco February 7th 2023, 4:35 pm

Oil pump pickup tube to bottom of oil pan floor clearance?   3/8" +-
Lifter bores grooved for roller\foot oiling?
Oil gallery plug w bleed hole?  Some builders did that to lube cam gear.
Try a different oil filter w 8'ish psi bypass?
try pressure reading from front left port?

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Post  supervel45 February 7th 2023, 9:07 pm

You did not state the "operating temperature"?

Also like the above poster mentioned check the other oil port, and also use a second known good gauge, to eliminate that from the mix.

Pro Comp Rockers. Switch them around and see if the noise moves with them. If so get better roller rockers. Wink

Paul Kane used to sell the oil pump shim kits for the BBF. Don't know if he ships to NZ, and they may not fit both kinds of pumps, i/e front or rear sump? I believe it was a 3 shim kit with a total of .050"? It may not be your fix, just a possible option, is all.

A stethoscope sometimes help to pinpoint noises if you have not tried that yet.

PS: You don't state the use of your Bronco but, if you are going to run bog's at WOT, as is commonly done around here, the restricted pushrods can be a good idea to keep oil in the pan, if you are over oiling the top end.

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Post  460bronc February 7th 2023, 11:12 pm

Hi there.  Thanks for your comments.  Couple of answers and comments below:

- Coolant operating temp is about 185 degrees.  Seems to stay pretty stable.    Note - I have a 90degree filter fitting as not a lot of room.  Also using Sanderson headers so the oil filter sits pretty close to the headers (half an inch away at the closest point).  Could the oil be getting too hot from the headers?
- Will try the other oil port with another gauge.  The one beside the manual fuel pump port front right facing engine?  The rear fed gauge is Ammeter and shares a feed with the stock oil pressure feed for the dash.  Could that impact its reading?
- Re Procomp roller rockers.  Yeah I've read not so good things after getting the motor.  Should have specified what I wanted!  Could they cause low pressure?  If not I'd tackle the odd tapping after I've worked out oil pressure issues (unless the two are related?).
- Re shims - OK I'll do some research on that thanks.  However, Ideally I'd like to understand why pressure is low given good clearances and high vol pump?  Just seems odd and would I just be masking the problem by shimming the pump?  Unless lifter bores are worn and I'm loosing pressure there?  
- Bronco use - Over here Broncos are pretty rare so this one is street use only (and gas is too expensive to run a 460 a lot!).  I've done a full restoration so this is a weekend cruiser only.  I'll never put a lot of miles on it but would like to get to the bottom of the low pressure cause.  

Re other post - sorry mate did not see your comments til today so responses below:

Oil pump pickup tube to bottom of oil pan floor clearance?   3/8" +-   ===  Yes build sheet says was set to 1/4 inch and was reset again when the high vol pump was installed so should be good.
Lifter bores grooved for roller\foot oiling?   =====   hmmm not that I'm aware of.
Oil gallery plug w bleed hole?  Some builders did that to lube cam gear.   =====   Its not stated in the build sheet and builder did not originally suggest that might be a cause when I called about low pressure.  He did say bearing clearances were slightly larger than stock (they are .002 rod, .003 mains) so pressure might be lower, plus that the lifters had been found to push a lot of oil to the top.  My mechanic also noted plenty of top end oiling hence the original question re these lifters
Try a different oil filter w 8'ish psi bypass?   =====   Yep am about to change filter.  I'm tight on space so current filter is about 4 inches long (Ryco Z87A).  Any recommendations on an alternate filter option
try pressure reading from front left port?   ===    As above yes thanks will try that port with another guage.  That's closest to the oil pump right so should give me an early pressure reading before pressure bleeds off through the engine?


Thanks a lot for comments so far.

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Post  supervel45 February 8th 2023, 1:40 am

460bronc wrote:Hi there.  Thanks for your comments.  Couple of answers and comments below:

- Coolant operating temp is about 185 degrees.  Seems to stay pretty stable.    Note - I have a 90degree filter fitting as not a lot of room.  Also using Sanderson headers so the oil filter sits pretty close to the headers (half an inch away at the closest point).  Could the oil be getting too hot from the headers?
- Will try the other oil port with another gauge.  The one beside the manual fuel pump port front right facing engine?  The rear fed gauge is Ammeter and shares a feed with the stock oil pressure feed for the dash.  Could that impact its reading?
- Re Procomp roller rockers.  Yeah I've read not so good things after getting the motor.  Should have specified what I wanted!  Could they cause low pressure?  If not I'd tackle the odd tapping after I've worked out oil pressure issues (unless the two are related?).
- Re shims - OK I'll do some research on that thanks.  However, Ideally I'd like to understand why pressure is low given good clearances and high vol pump?  Just seems odd and would I just be masking the problem by shimming the pump?  Unless lifter bores are worn and I'm loosing pressure there?  
- Bronco use - Over here Broncos are pretty rare so this one is street use only (and gas is too expensive to run a 460 a lot!).  I've done a full restoration so this is a weekend cruiser only.  I'll never put a lot of miles on it but would like to get to the bottom of the low pressure cause.  

Re other post - sorry mate did not see your comments til today so responses below:

Oil pump pickup tube to bottom of oil pan floor clearance?   3/8" +-   ===  Yes build sheet says was set to 1/4 inch and was reset again when the high vol pump was installed so should be good.
Lifter bores grooved for roller\foot oiling?   =====   hmmm not that I'm aware of.
Oil gallery plug w bleed hole?  Some builders did that to lube cam gear.   =====   Its not stated in the build sheet and builder did not originally suggest that might be a cause when I called about low pressure.  He did say bearing clearances were slightly larger than stock (they are .002 rod, .003 mains) so pressure might be lower, plus that the lifters had been found to push a lot of oil to the top.  My mechanic also noted plenty of top end oiling hence the original question re these lifters
Try a different oil filter w 8'ish psi bypass?   =====   Yep am about to change filter.  I'm tight on space so current filter is about 4 inches long (Ryco Z87A).  Any recommendations on an alternate filter option
try pressure reading from front left port?   ===    As above yes thanks will try that port with another guage.  That's closest to the oil pump right so should give me an early pressure reading before pressure bleeds off through the engine?


Thanks a lot for comments so far.

___________________________________________________________________________________________




1. Warm the truck up and drive it a little. Shut it off and take a temperature reading on the bottom of the oil pan with a laser thermometer. This should give you a semi accurate idea of your oil temperature.

1a. Headers get very hot and could affect the oil temperature and viscosity. How much I do not know.

2. Yes that oil port. Do not run a plastic/nylon permanent line close to you headers, if you decide to run dual front/back gauges.

2a. It's Static, no flow. Should not matter.

3. I would not think so. The only way I could see it maybe is if the oil feed hole was grossly out of size, to the large size. Does not seem likely though. I don't know if the needle bearings can get out of those Pro Comps, that would be my biggest fear with cheap roller rockers. The roller needles seem to lock up oil pumps if they escape. Hopefully the distributor gear pin breaks, if not they will greatly affect oil pressure if the shaft fails.

4. Keep checking into the OP spring/shim bit. Looks like it was .060" per shim for 10psi increase at WOT.
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61773
Like I said it maybe an option, it may not be the right or best. It might work for weekend cruiser though.

5. We have enough old heaps that are old mud trucks around here to thrash, glad you are taking care of them if they are rare there and it's a nice one.

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Post  manofmerc February 9th 2023, 4:38 am

Whenever you change the oil and filter why not cut open your filter and inspect it to see if you have lost a bearing .And maybe consider a way to use a conventional oil filter .You can purchase a tool to cut open an oil filter but just using a cutoff wheel on a grinder is ok .You can tell the shavings from the cut off wheel from any other debris .doug

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Post  460bronc February 9th 2023, 4:43 am

Hi Doug. Yep planning to do exactly that in the next few days. Just in the process of plumbing a guage to the front of the motor then will be dropping the oil and filter and will check the filter out then

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Post  manofmerc February 10th 2023, 3:43 am

As far as header to oil filter clearance the pipes on my comet drag car are about 1/4" from my oil filter and my oil pressure is fine .This 90 degree oil filter adapter you mention is this something aftermarket? Or is it something from ford ? I wish you could stick a standard oil filter on there and run it but I somehow guess not . Just look at the oil when you drain it and at that filer for any debris .Maybe try priming you oil pump with a drill and listen for oil leaking leaving out an oil gallery plug is a possibility as well .Keep at it old boy hopefully you will solve this issue .Doug

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Post  460bronc February 10th 2023, 4:40 pm

Hi there. Yeah the 90 degree adaptor is something RV's use apparently and a lot of bronco 460 conversions have them. Ford make an adaptor and pretty sure I've got the ford one part N.o IL2E 6884. I did wonder about any restriction this might cause but on that point:

- If pressure cold is good (60+lbs) and that reduces as it heats up, if I had a "restriction" in flow via either the filter or adaptor, wouldn't that mean pressure hot would get better as oil is thinner so can get through the restriction easier? If I'm right about that the prob I have is more oil is escaping the galleries as the oil heats up rather than trying to get past a restriction? Does that make sense or am I missing something?

Anyway am going to change filter from the current Ryco Z87a (have no idea what bypass pressure it has and Ryco tell you nothing) to a K&N 2004 which is the K&N short filter for the 460. Has an 8-11lb bypass and sounds like a good replacement option. To get a filter straight to the block without the adaptor the filter can only be about 3 inches long :/ . So hopefully the front gauge tells me I have good pump pressure then can work from there. If its low there would that point to pick up (crack etc?). Am also going to refill with 20/50 as pretty sure I've got 15/40 in there at the moment. What's weird is the oil pressure has been like this from first start up and I've only done about 200miles (if that to be honest) so does not feel like a wear issue but more like either big clearances (which I don't think I have from the build sheet), a gallery plug missing, or a part dumping pressure somewhere. Of course I say all that wise shit then I change the oil and all is well!! (cross fingers)

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Post  460bronc February 10th 2023, 9:55 pm

OK ok some quick numbers with a front oil psi gauge.

In Park:
Cold idle about 700rpm - Front gauge appx 50lb - Rear gauge - appx 50lb slowly falls as the engine warms down to:
Hot Idle about 800rpm - both gauges about 13lb (appx 10lb in drive so appx 600rpm)
2000 revs 28lb
3000 revs 34lb
4000 revs 36lb
5000 revs 38lb . . maybe 40lb at a push and seems to top out at that and that's just the rear gauge. The front one I have not tried yet as need the missus to sit and rev while I check the under bonnet gauge. However, I did just take the engine up and the front gauge also sems to stop increasing at about 40lb.

So . . . is the good news both gauges are the same? Or is that the bad news? I'm yet to change the oil and filter but that's the next change tomorrow.


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Post  Mark Miller February 10th 2023, 11:31 pm

460bronc wrote:OK ok some quick numbers with a front oil psi gauge.  

In Park:
Cold idle about 700rpm - Front gauge appx 50lb - Rear gauge - appx 50lb slowly falls as the engine warms down to:
Hot Idle about 800rpm - both gauges about 13lb (appx 10lb in drive so appx 600rpm)
2000 revs 28lb
3000 revs 34lb
4000 revs 36lb
5000 revs 38lb  . . maybe 40lb at a push and seems to top out at that and that's just the rear gauge.  The front one I have not tried yet as need the missus to sit and rev while I check the under bonnet gauge.   However, I did just take the engine up and the front gauge also sems to stop increasing at about 40lb.

So . . . is the good news both gauges are the same?  Or is that the bad news?  I'm yet to change the oil and filter but that's the next change tomorrow.


I thought i have read 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm so 38 lbs of pressure at 5000 rpm isn't good should be at least 50 lbs. of oil pressure!!

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Post  2 wicked February 11th 2023, 12:38 pm

How big of a channel did you put in the lifter bores? A scratch would be more than sufficient I would think. You may be dumping a large amount of unrestricted oil back to the crankcase. Which would cause low oil pressure. Good luck 🤞

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Post  460bronc February 11th 2023, 1:53 pm

I bought it as a fresh built crate engine and unsure if any groove was put in the lifter bores. Definitely was not raised with me whilst being built or mentioned when I asked about low pressure on first start up once I received it. The builder did mention lifters as the possible cause.

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Post  supervel45 February 11th 2023, 5:15 pm

460bronc wrote:I bought it as a fresh built crate engine and unsure if any groove was put in the lifter bores.   Definitely was not raised with me whilst being built or mentioned when I asked about low pressure on first start up once I received it.   The builder did mention lifters as the possible cause.



Any chance they swap it out under warranty?

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Post  460bronc February 11th 2023, 6:33 pm

No mate. Had this motor a couple of years and I'm in new zealand and the motor came from the states. I'll have to persevere. I'm wondering (hoping) the oil filter that's on there is a possible restriction so the pump can't generate pressure to the engine . . . Maybe. Easy thing to check and replace so that's next.

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Join date : 2023-01-29
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Lifters and Oil Pressure Empty What did you find?

Post  manofmerc February 19th 2023, 4:16 am

Well whats up Have you been working on the bronc ? Doug

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Lifters and Oil Pressure Empty Re: Lifters and Oil Pressure

Post  460bronc February 19th 2023, 2:38 pm

Hey Doug. Mate I've got some fresh oil and a new K&N short filter but been away and now working. I'm not holding my breath that that is the magic solution but its the logical first step. Plus I can cut the old filter open and check it for possible bearing problems. If that does not improve things I read a thread the other day and a guy reckoned he's had a few 460's with same symptoms as mine and each time was valley plug/s missing. I'd be surprised if it was that but I guess if oil, filter and bearings appear OK then my next stop would be pulling the intake and checking those plugs are installed . . . which is kind of annoying but would be good to get to the bottom of the problem. If I do that I have to decide if while its off I also change the lifters given some reports of Gatorman lifters sending a lot of oil (pressure loss) via the top of the engine. I don't really want to incur that cost on a "maybe" but without any other answer it seems logical.

460bronc

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Lifters and Oil Pressure Empty Re: Lifters and Oil Pressure

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