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factory 2 bolt block . max horse power i could run

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Post  maverick172 September 3rd 2023, 9:11 am

so i am trying to figure out the max hp i could run in a factory dove-a or even a d1ve block . i called eliminator and they have aluminum blocks but a bit pricey , cast iron they are atleast 9 months to a year before we could possibly see those.
so basically i am trying to figure that max hp i can run through a turbo bbf setup i really dont want to jump to a differant platform but if i cannot make a block handle my goal of 1600 to 1800 hp i may have too.
so just curious to make a block live in this power range what would be needed . i would do a 4 bolt conversion if i need to would grout fill it ?
thanks

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Post  rmcomprandy September 3rd 2023, 10:01 am

maverick172 wrote:so i am trying to figure out the max hp i could run in a factory dove-a or even a d1ve block . i called eliminator and they have aluminum blocks but a bit pricey , cast iron they are atleast 9 months to a year before we could possibly see those.
so basically i am trying to figure that max hp i can run through a turbo bbf setup i really dont want to jump to a differant platform but if i cannot make a block handle my goal of 1600 to 1800 hp i may have too.
so just curious to make a block live in this power range what would be needed . i would do a 4 bolt conversion if i need to would grout fill it ?
thanks

Staying out of detonation, I have seen 1,500 many times with a blower.

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Post  maverick172 September 3rd 2023, 12:15 pm



Staying out of detonation, I have seen 1,500 many times with a blower.
[/quote]
so if i can get a good tune 1500 is possible thats not too shabby.
but what would the maintenance be like . i have heard of cap walk and such also , what would you do too keep the engine alive at these power levels ?ie 4 bolt main caps? would you use studs? would you use main stud girdle ?
how often would i need to tear engine down and check mains?
would you run bigger clearances on the mains?
what oil would you run?

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Post  supervel45 September 3rd 2023, 12:31 pm

maverick172 wrote:so i am trying to figure out the max hp i could run in a factory dove-a or even a d1ve block . i called eliminator and they have aluminum blocks but a bit pricey , cast iron they are atleast 9 months to a year before we could possibly see those.
so basically i am trying to figure that max hp i can run through a turbo bbf setup i really dont want to jump to a differant platform but if i cannot make a block handle my goal of 1600 to 1800 hp i may have too.
so just curious to make a block live in this power range what would be needed . i would do a 4 bolt conversion if i need to would grout fill it ?
thanks

At Your Goal a standard bore new block would be nice. I saw six new 4.36" Standard bore D9's in the Crate for sale not long ago for $600.00ea..

I don't know what happened to them, I suspect he may have made a deal and sold them all.

My Thought is you could sonic test all the bores and pick the best ones.

With some of the new X-Ray and other tech someone could scope out the webbing for flaws.

Not Practical For a Non Pro are Sportsman Racer though most of the Time.

Same Idea on the choice of used D0OVE ect. Blocks if you can swing it.

Another thought is a Shorter Stroke Crank would be helpful to relieve stress on the bottom.

I believe in metal fatigue even in Cast Iron.

That means to me it will let loose sooner with the more full power passes.

What Randy Said is Way at The Top of the list also if not the #1 Biggest Concern, on any Block Also.

So Spill the beans of the US price for a new Aluminum Block at the current time?

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Post  rmcomprandy September 3rd 2023, 2:01 pm

maverick172 wrote:

Staying out of detonation, I have seen 1,500 many times with a blower.

so if i can get a good tune 1500 is possible thats not too shabby.
but what would the maintenance be like . i have heard of cap walk and such also , what would you do too keep the engine alive at these power levels ?ie  4 bolt main caps? would you use studs? would you use main stud girdle ?
how often would i need to tear engine down and check mains?
would you run bigger clearances on the mains?
what oil would you run?[/quote]

You don't want to remove any metal from the block if you don't need to do it. "Program" has steel 2 bolt caps and using good BOLTS are just fine. Be certain that the line bore of the main saddles are perfect.
Main clearance should be as tight as you can make it without bearing problems; (it is up to you where you wish to start to find that point, which is usually determined by the crankshaft being used).
Most O.E.M. blocks of that power level at least have the water jackets half filled.

Oil brand is completely a personal choice and subjective but, use whatever weight is correct for the temperature and bearing clearances being used.

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Post  maverick172 September 4th 2023, 8:43 am


so sounds like you would keep it a 2 bolt main block. interesting. but these 2 bolt steel caps that pro-gram has i could not find on there site . when you say good bolts , you talking oem or a aftermarket type like a arp bolt and not a stud?
would bearing choice also come into play or would you run just a standard type bearing ?
thank you
You don't want to remove any metal from the block if you don't need to do it. "Program" has steel 2 bolt caps and using good BOLTS are just fine. Be certain that the line bore of the main saddles are perfect.
Main clearance should be as tight as you can make it without bearing problems; (it is up to you where you wish to start to find that point, which is usually determined by the crankshaft being used).
Most O.E.M. blocks of that power level at least have the water jackets half filled.

Oil brand is completely a personal choice and subjective but, use whatever weight is correct for the temperature and bearing clearances being used.[/quote]

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Post  maverick172 September 4th 2023, 4:38 pm

thanks super
ya i am aiming towards going to a differant block setup as i can build a whole bottom end with the price of just the block for a bbf and than i will be easily able to add fuel injection to the system as well. looking at going to a ls in this particular build but still not 100% would really like to keep the 460 engine love bbf but..

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Post  Dave De September 5th 2023, 9:14 am

I am no expert but I couldnt keep the 2 bolt mains on a D9 block from walking with NA and a 4.5" crank. There is no doubt that a bad tune will kill it but I was conservative. Shorter stroke helps but putting 1500 thru a 2 bolt bottom sounds like disaster. Sure filling it will help but its going to walk and pull the main webs out of the casting. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually doing this and how many passes they've achieved.
I think Milodon still offers 4 bolt caps. I got a set last year from Summit for around $350. Programs have been long gone for many years. I tried to talk the owner into remaking them but was told that there isnt enough interest in them.
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Post  maverick172 September 5th 2023, 8:11 pm

ya thats kinda what i am thinking . i do not want too put x amount into a build too have cap walk.. i like the engines but i believe the factory blocks have there limit
Dave De wrote:I am no expert but I couldnt keep the 2 bolt mains on a D9 block from walking with NA and a 4.5" crank. There is no doubt that a bad tune will kill it but I was conservative. Shorter stroke helps but putting 1500 thru a 2 bolt bottom sounds like disaster. Sure filling it will help but its going to walk and pull the main webs out of the casting. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually doing this and how many passes they've achieved.
I think Milodon still offers 4 bolt caps. I got a set last year from Summit for around $350. Programs have been long gone for many years. I tried to talk the owner into remaking them but was told that there isnt enough interest in them.  

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Post  rmcomprandy September 5th 2023, 8:40 pm

Dave De wrote:I am no expert but I couldnt keep the 2 bolt mains on a D9 block from walking with NA and a 4.5" crank. There is no doubt that a bad tune will kill it but I was conservative. Shorter stroke helps but putting 1500 thru a 2 bolt bottom sounds like disaster. Sure filling it will help but its going to walk and pull the main webs out of the casting. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually doing this and how many passes they've achieved.
I think Milodon still offers 4 bolt caps. I got a set last year from Summit for around $350. Programs have been long gone for many years. I tried to talk the owner into remaking them but was told that there isnt enough interest in them.  

Talk to Paul Kane ... he still does this kinda power with a lot of builds.
I believe he does the 4 bolt main cap conversion.

The "Program" cap was only a FRONT cap so, it only came as ONE; Maybe no longer available but, you'd need three or four.
Personally, I machine & "strap" the O.E.M. Ford caps with a 1/2" x 1" - 4340 steel piece & using longer Bolts.
The crankshafts were cast nodular FORD offset ground to 4.140" stroke.
20 some years ago, I built 12 of these 1,500 horsepower, 8-71, (largest rules allowed), "Blown" drag boat engines for customers all over the country.
They made quite a few runs in a season before a "freshen-up" was necessary.

Is it the best way to go ? Certainly not but, it does work quite well.

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Post  Dave De September 5th 2023, 9:29 pm

The Program cap number was PGE-F460CFA. It had 3 caps for mains 2,3,and 4.

This ProComp kit is made to order at $151
Is it worth the effort?
https://www.jegs.com/i/Speedmaster/746/PCE289.1011/10002/-1
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Post  maverick172 September 5th 2023, 10:21 pm

when you say you machine and strap with a 4340 bar do you have a picture of this so i can understand what you mean ?
rmcomprandy wrote:
Dave De wrote:I am no expert but I couldnt keep the 2 bolt mains on a D9 block from walking with NA and a 4.5" crank. There is no doubt that a bad tune will kill it but I was conservative. Shorter stroke helps but putting 1500 thru a 2 bolt bottom sounds like disaster. Sure filling it will help but its going to walk and pull the main webs out of the casting. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually doing this and how many passes they've achieved.
I think Milodon still offers 4 bolt caps. I got a set last year from Summit for around $350. Programs have been long gone for many years. I tried to talk the owner into remaking them but was told that there isnt enough interest in them.  

Talk to Paul Kane ... he still does this kinda power with a lot of builds.
I believe he does the 4 bolt main cap conversion.

The "Program" cap was only a FRONT cap so, it only came as ONE; Maybe no longer available but, you'd need three or four.
Personally, I machine & "strap" the O.E.M. Ford caps with a 1/2" x 1" - 4340 steel piece & using longer Bolts.
The crankshafts were cast nodular FORD offset ground to 4.140" stroke.
20 some years ago, I built 12 of these 1,500 horsepower, 8-71, (largest rules allowed), "Blown" drag boat engines for customers all over the country.
They made quite a few runs in a season before a "freshen-up" was necessary.

Is it the best way to go ? Certainly not but, it does work quite well.

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Post  rmcomprandy September 5th 2023, 11:58 pm

maverick172 wrote:when you say you machine and strap with a 4340  bar do you have a picture of this so i can understand  what you mean ?
rmcomprandy wrote:
Dave De wrote:I am no expert but I couldnt keep the 2 bolt mains on a D9 block from walking with NA and a 4.5" crank. There is no doubt that a bad tune will kill it but I was conservative. Shorter stroke helps but putting 1500 thru a 2 bolt bottom sounds like disaster. Sure filling it will help but its going to walk and pull the main webs out of the casting. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually doing this and how many passes they've achieved.
I think Milodon still offers 4 bolt caps. I got a set last year from Summit for around $350. Programs have been long gone for many years. I tried to talk the owner into remaking them but was told that there isnt enough interest in them.  

Talk to Paul Kane ... he still does this kinda power with a lot of builds.
I believe he does the 4 bolt main cap conversion.

The "Program" cap was only a FRONT cap so, it only came as ONE; Maybe no longer available but, you'd need three or four.
Personally, I machine & "strap" the O.E.M. Ford caps with a 1/2" x 1" - 4340 steel piece & using longer Bolts.
The crankshafts were cast nodular FORD offset ground to 4.140" stroke.
20 some years ago, I built 12 of these 1,500 horsepower, 8-71, (largest rules allowed), "Blown" drag boat engines for customers all over the country.
They made quite a few runs in a season before a "freshen-up" was necessary.

Is it the best way to go ? Certainly not but, it does work quite well.

No photos; it is simply bought as a flat piece of 4340 steel 1/2" x 1" which is 4 feet long and you need to cut it to length so, it spans the cap, overlapping about a half inch on each side with the correct hole spacing drilled for the main bolts; the main caps need to be made flat across the top.

Bottom tap all the main bolt holes and use Grade 8 "cap screw" bolts of the correct length;
(the bolt should go to the bottom of the tapped hole when just being seated; that is the correct length. Then use hardened washers about .100" thick, (head bolt washers), under the bolt heads in final assembly).

No one said it was gonna be easy.  
Installing 4 bolt caps is not easy either and, along with fitting, drilling & tapping, they will also need finish line boring.

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Post  supervel45 September 6th 2023, 4:31 am

If I was going to run a Ford Engine in a Econobox Flyweight, I would Follow this guys lead Closely.

He seems to have it down pretty Proven and Pat. He Has Alot of Years of R&D Invested and is an Engineer Cool
                        ^ Just Like Lawrence Connolly and Gene Deputy the Fast Turbo Old School Guys in my Area.

https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads/driving-my-8-second-mustang-from-new-mexico-to-nmra-race-in-bradenton-fl.451963/

https://www.dragzine.com/features/interviews/randy-seward-the-crazy-story-behind-4000-miles-in-an-8-sec-stang/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=randy-seward-the-crazy-story-behind-4000-miles-in-an-8-sec-stang

^ Wait For the Page to Load, it's Slow. It's the DragZine Article on the Car and Race. He is in the 7's Now! Wink

If I was going to a Mid Size or Lightish Truck I would Step Up to a 351W Platform. More Power and and more room in the bigger engine compartment so why not is my thought. Also the Fly Weight cars will go Faster then I want with the Windsor, so no need to go bigger then the 302 Based Block anyway.

I always found the beauty in the OEM 429 Hi Po Parts with the OEM 460 Cranks the Cost and How Fast They Can Run with Modified OEM Parts myself.

I never liked the Idea of Heads UP Racing them in Today's World with OEM Parts Especially at The Newer HP Levels. Now Even with Aftermarket Parts Hard to Come By, it Does Not Add Up in the Sub 4 Second World Anymore, If it Ever Did.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMXVpen3eQ4

^The above is a 427 CID.

I would Keep the Stroke Shorter then the Bore Diameter and Likely at or under 4", likely at 3.75". I would run a Big Single Turbo Also, Less to Go Wrong, Likely Cheaper and More Power then I Want/Need, Less Install/Room Agrivation, Weight Up Front (Most Important) and Screw Looks is the Reason. That's just me. though.


PS: Used HP Parts and Blocks Much More Common and Sometimes Cheaper then the 429/460 Stuff. Sometimes Sometimes well Maybe. Neutral

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Post  stanger68 September 6th 2023, 8:37 pm

Im in the same boat with you. Ive been on waiting list for eliminator block for 2 years. They keep moving the dates back for various reasons every few months. If you do try it. Use the King HP main bearings. They have more edge taper thank the XP or the Clevite H series. This helps greatly with preventing scuffing the edges if the bearings. Ive used all 3 bearings on my 557 NA at 1000 hp with the pro gram splayed caps on a D1 block. I tried this after talking to the engineer at King and he was right. When i tore it down the next time the edges of the main bearings showed very little or zero signs of contact.

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Post  Dave De September 13th 2023, 7:48 pm

stanger68 wrote:Im in the same boat with you. Ive been on waiting list for eliminator block for 2 years. They keep moving the dates back for various reasons every few months. If you do try it. Use the King HP main bearings. They have more edge taper thank the XP or the Clevite H series. This helps greatly with preventing scuffing the edges if the bearings. Ive used all 3 bearings on my 557 NA at 1000 hp with the pro gram splayed caps on a D1 block. I tried this after talking to the engineer at King and he was right. When i tore it down the next time the edges of the main bearings showed very little or zero signs of contact.

I'm going to get on that Eliminator block waiting list.
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Post  Paul Kane September 19th 2023, 4:37 pm

maverick172 wrote:…i am trying to figure out the max hp i could run in a factory dove-a or even a d1ve block…i am trying to figure that max hp i can run through a turbo bbf setup…make a block handle my goal of 1600 to 1800 hp…

so just curious to make a block live in this power range what would be needed . i would do a 4 bolt conversion if i need to would grout fill it ?
thanks
Personally I would put a splayed 4-bolt cap conversion on 2, 3, & 4.  The block should be hand-picked based on overall condition and a good sonic report. It may or may not be necessary, but if it would help you sleep better at night then fill it to the bottom of the water pump holes.  A factory production block prepped like that should easily support the kind of power you are targeting, the shorter the stroke the better.
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Post  dfree383 September 19th 2023, 8:25 pm

Imo factory 2 bolt stuff is safe at 800ish Hp then it’s a good idea to upgrade
To 4 bolt caps or straps.

Yes people have gone way beyond, but things can break in a hurry
with a bad tune or fatigue.

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Post  hbstang September 30th 2023, 11:02 am

stanger68 wrote:Im in the same boat with you. Ive been on waiting list for eliminator block for 2 years. They keep moving the dates back for various reasons every few months. If you do try it. Use the King HP main bearings. They have more edge taper thank the XP or the Clevite H series. This helps greatly with preventing scuffing the edges if the bearings. Ive used all 3 bearings on my 557 NA at 1000 hp with the pro gram splayed caps on a D1 block. I tried this after talking to the engineer at King and he was right. When i tore it down the next time the edges of the main bearings showed very little or zero signs of contact.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/885320203259543/?referral_code=undefined

heres my 598 for sale
https://www.429-460.com/t28764-all-aluminum-block-598-bbf-p51-heads-pump-gas#319746
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Post  maverick172 October 8th 2023, 8:20 pm

hbstang wrote:
stanger68 wrote:Im in the same boat with you. Ive been on waiting list for eliminator block for 2 years. They keep moving the dates back for various reasons every few months. If you do try it. Use the King HP main bearings. They have more edge taper thank the XP or the Clevite H series. This helps greatly with preventing scuffing the edges if the bearings. Ive used all 3 bearings on my 557 NA at 1000 hp with the pro gram splayed caps on a D1 block. I tried this after talking to the engineer at King and he was right. When i tore it down the next time the edges of the main bearings showed very little or zero signs of contact.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/885320203259543/?referral_code=undefined

heres my 598 for sale
https://www.429-460.com/t28764-all-aluminum-block-598-bbf-p51-heads-pump-gas#319746
so i called kasse and asked him about any blocks he did not have anything too sell . but asked him about those elimantor aluminum blocks he said he only would use them for 1000hp or less def not 1500 or 2000hp like eliminator claims .

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Post  maverick172 October 8th 2023, 8:22 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
maverick172 wrote:…i am trying to figure out the max hp i could run in a factory dove-a or even a d1ve block…i am trying to figure that max hp i can run through a turbo bbf setup…make a block handle my goal of 1600 to 1800 hp…

so just curious to make a block live in this power range what would be needed . i would do a 4 bolt conversion if i need to would grout fill it ?
thanks
Personally I would put a splayed 4-bolt cap conversion on 2, 3, & 4.  The block should be hand-picked based on overall condition and a good sonic report. It may or may not be necessary, but if it would help you sleep better at night then fill it to the bottom of the water pump holes.  A factory production block prepped like that should easily support the kind of power you are targeting, the shorter the stroke the better.
i asked kasse about doing the 4 bolt conversion and he did not recommend and said alot of time makes the block weaker .

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Post  maverick172 October 8th 2023, 8:25 pm

Dave De wrote:The Program cap number was PGE-F460CFA. It had 3 caps for mains 2,3,and 4.

This ProComp kit is made to order at $151
Is it worth the effort?
https://www.jegs.com/i/Speedmaster/746/PCE289.1011/10002/-1
they dont have anything in stock and kasse said in alot of situations it may weaken block ..

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Post  hbstang October 8th 2023, 9:27 pm

so what is this build for,a drag car?you want 1800 hp with a $600 block?what about the rest of the engine?
FYI i have an A 460 block i would sell.it has 2.750 mains,4.420 bore.and 2 .100 sleeves in 6 and 7.it also has really thick cylinders,up to .300 thick at current bore.i would sell it for $2500.or with the crower 4.400 stroke for an extra $1,000.
youmay make 1500-1800 with the stock block but you wont have peace of mind for long.
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Post  Paul Kane October 9th 2023, 12:34 pm

maverick172 wrote:...
i asked kasse about doing the 4 bolt conversion and he did not recommend and said  alot of time makes the block weaker .
I'd like to put some context to that statement:

Does removing material from any cylinder block "weaken" it in some manner? I suppose it does, technically speaking, and in-and-of-itself.

But can an aftermarket splayed billet-cap converted 4-bolted D0VE block support thousands of horsepower?  Yes it certainly can--this has been proven over-and-over.

Now, what if that exact same factory 2-bolt D0VE block were never converted to a 4-bolt main? As a production 2-bolt block that was never "weakened," could that same cast-capped 2-bolt block support thousands of horsepower better and more reliably than if it were converted to billet capped 4-bolt mains?  Which do you think will sustain such power more reliably? Which do you think could sustain greater overall abuse?  Which do you think will be easier on the main bearings?  Which do you think has the greater chance of staying together/has the greatest chance of lasting longer than the other?

If you think the answer to those questions are "the 2-bolt block!" then build that engine with one and tell us how it worked out for you. Wink

We are not setting out to "weaken" a major component; were are making a design change in the interest of upgrading that component for the kind of power to which it will be subjected.
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Post  maverick172 October 9th 2023, 9:05 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
maverick172 wrote:...
i asked kasse about doing the 4 bolt conversion and he did not recommend and said  alot of time makes the block weaker .
I'd like to put some context to that statement:

Does removing material from any cylinder block "weaken" it in some manner? I suppose it does, technically speaking, and in-and-of-itself.

But can an aftermarket splayed billet-cap converted 4-bolted D0VE block support thousands of horsepower?  Yes it certainly can--this has been proven over-and-over.

Now, what if that exact same factory 2-bolt D0VE block were never converted to a 4-bolt main? As a production 2-bolt block that was never "weakened," could that same cast-capped 2-bolt block support thousands of horsepower better and more reliably than if it were converted to billet capped 4-bolt mains?  Which do you think will sustain such power more reliably? Which do you think could sustain greater overall abuse?  Which do you think will be easier on the main bearings?  Which do you think has the greater chance of staying together/has the greatest chance of lasting longer than the other?

If you think the answer to those questions are "the 2-bolt block!" then build that engine with one and tell us how it worked out for you. Wink

We are not setting out to "weaken" a major component; were are making a design change in the interest of upgrading that component for the kind of power to which it will be subjected.
i would have to agree with you on this as well. i am just relaying the message i got from kasse himself , i too believe the 4 bolt upgrade is the way to go .
btw do you have any 4 bolt main caps too sell? i cannot find them anywhere .?
thanks

maverick172

Posts : 202
Join date : 2022-10-16

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factory 2 bolt block . max horse power i could run  Empty Re: factory 2 bolt block . max horse power i could run

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