598 SCJ Build

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Post  derek528 on March 4th 2012, 9:27 pm

I started working on my new engine this weekend.
A460 block bored to 4.600
4.50 stroke 4340 scat crank
scat 6.7 rod with arp 2000 bolts
Ross custom pistons flat top, gas ported with zero gap rings 3mm, 043, 043
innovators west balancer, with crank trigger
Canton pro drag pan
melling HV oil pump from ford racing
Ford racing steel timing set
moroso 3 vane vac pump


The heads are a set of FRPP SCJ's that have had a 2.25 intake valve added. My brother an I designed a CNC program for them that will be cut hopefully this weekend. The cam will be a custom comp solid roller, specs are yet to be determined. I will be running a set of crane gold wide body rockers w/ jomar stud girdles. A mafia intake with some porting, of course. It will be topped off with a Pro systems SV1 1350 cfm carb. So far the block has been bored and decked, and I will document things as we go. We should have it on the dyno in about 2 months.


Last edited by derek528 on July 30th 2012, 8:24 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : changes)

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Post  bruno on March 4th 2012, 9:54 pm

sounds awesome , will be watching this one for sure
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Post  derek528 on March 4th 2012, 9:59 pm

might be a little slow going, we're just working on it on saturdays. I'll get some pics up next weekend, I forgot my camera this saturday. The design ports did turn out pretty nice, it should make good power.

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Post  dfree383 on March 5th 2012, 12:22 am

how'd they flow?
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Post  derek528 on March 5th 2012, 7:52 am

We didn't flow them. I might flow one at some point. Flow numbers are not really important to me, but It would be interesting to see what they flow.

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Post  derek528 on March 11th 2012, 8:48 am

Did more work this weekend. Checked rod and main clearances. The mains were tight and the finish on the main saddles was pretty rough. We align honed it, it cleaned up pretty nice, and we got the clearance we needed. We put the head on the block and scribed the bore to the chamber. Got the chamber roughed in, and started porting the second intake port. Since bbf heads have two different intake port layouts in each head, we have to port both of them to design the CNC program. I took some pics, here is a link if anyone wants to look at them.

https://s331.photobucket.com/albums/l458/derek528_bucket/

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Post  bruno on March 11th 2012, 9:59 am

598 SCJ Build  598build008
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Post  c.evans on March 11th 2012, 12:28 pm

derek528 wrote:We didn't flow them. I might flow one at some point. Flow numbers are not really important to me, but It would be interesting to see what they flow.

So my question is; how do you know whether or not the port design is any good, if you don't flow test it? To me that is like saying that you plumbed your entire racecar, fuel cell to carbs, but didn't turn on your fuel pump to check for leaks after you got done.

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Post  derek528 on March 11th 2012, 2:23 pm

There is so much experience in the shop that there really is no need to flow them. They know what makes power...and it's not flow numbers. For example, laying back the short turn really flat will sometimes kill flow numbers, but almost always picks up power. To me, a flow bench is a tool that has it's place, but the dyno tells the true story. I may be wrong and this thing might be a pig, but I doubt it. It will be dynoed, on a conservative dyno and I'll post the numbers. Bischoff does have a flow bench, which gets used from time to time, but bischoff does not build winning engines based on flow numbers. I have brought up flowing these heads and all the guys in the shop just laugh and say "You need to stop racing the flow bench"

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Post  Barney on March 11th 2012, 4:15 pm

derek528 wrote:There is so much experience in the shop that there really is no need to flow them. They know what makes power...and it's not flow numbers. For example, laying back the short turn really flat will sometimes kill flow numbers, but almost always picks up power. To me, a flow bench is a tool that has it's place, but the dyno tells the true story. I may be wrong and this thing might be a pig, but I doubt it. It will be dynoed, on a conservative dyno and I'll post the numbers. Bischoff does have a flow bench, which gets used from time to time, but bischoff does not build winning engines based on flow numbers. I have brought up flowing these heads and all the guys in the shop just laugh and say "You need to stop racing the flow bench"
I agree to a point, but having flow #s sure does make choosing a camshaft easier.
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Post  derek528 on March 11th 2012, 4:39 pm

Barney wrote:
derek528 wrote:There is so much experience in the shop that there really is no need to flow them. They know what makes power...and it's not flow numbers. For example, laying back the short turn really flat will sometimes kill flow numbers, but almost always picks up power. To me, a flow bench is a tool that has it's place, but the dyno tells the true story. I may be wrong and this thing might be a pig, but I doubt it. It will be dynoed, on a conservative dyno and I'll post the numbers. Bischoff does have a flow bench, which gets used from time to time, but bischoff does not build winning engines based on flow numbers. I have brought up flowing these heads and all the guys in the shop just laugh and say "You need to stop racing the flow bench"
I agree to a point, but having flow #s sure does make choosing a camshaft easier.

The plan on this one is the biggest cam the spring package can take. The installed hieght is 2.00 max on this setup, that is the limiting factor. Big lift cams make big power, regardless of flow tables IMhumbleO

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Post  Barney on March 11th 2012, 5:37 pm

Not if the heads get turbulent at .650 lift, and you have a .900 lift cam, but your right go with the biggest port, biggest duration, biggest lobe sep, biggest lift you can stuff in that block. Big cams make big power when they have the components to support them, having flow numbers vs lift is good info to have, I would never order a cam without them IMO, but you obviously have it under control, post up your dyno results when your done I'm sure it will make decent PEAK power.
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Post  darren on March 11th 2012, 7:06 pm

How are you getting your 2" installed height on your SCJ heads
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Post  derek528 on March 11th 2012, 9:10 pm

darren wrote:How are you getting your 2" installed height on your SCJ heads

+.050 locks with +.100 retainers.

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Post  68galaxie on March 12th 2012, 8:03 pm

derek528 wrote:There is so much experience in the shop that there really is no need to flow them. They know what makes power...and it's not flow numbers. For example, laying back the short turn really flat will sometimes kill flow numbers, but almost always picks up power. To me, a flow bench is a tool that has it's place, but the dyno tells the true story. I may be wrong and this thing might be a pig, but I doubt it. It will be dynoed, on a conservative dyno and I'll post the numbers. Bischoff does have a flow bench, which gets used from time to time, but bischoff does not build winning engines based on flow numbers. I have brought up flowing these heads and all the guys in the shop just laugh and say "You need to stop racing the flow bench"

How does one know if a port goes turbulent at certain lifts without the flow bench tool? (regardless of what the "useless" flow number might be?
How do you know if all ports flow evenly? You cannot do this with the naked eye.

Just curious how the "flow bench is useless" people deal with these issues?
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Post  derek528 on March 12th 2012, 8:22 pm

68galaxie wrote:
derek528 wrote:There is so much experience in the shop that there really is no need to flow them. They know what makes power...and it's not flow numbers. For example, laying back the short turn really flat will sometimes kill flow numbers, but almost always picks up power. To me, a flow bench is a tool that has it's place, but the dyno tells the true story. I may be wrong and this thing might be a pig, but I doubt it. It will be dynoed, on a conservative dyno and I'll post the numbers. Bischoff does have a flow bench, which gets used from time to time, but bischoff does not build winning engines based on flow numbers. I have brought up flowing these heads and all the guys in the shop just laugh and say "You need to stop racing the flow bench"

How does one know if a port goes turbulent at certain lifts without the flow bench tool? (regardless of what the "useless" flow number might be?
How do you know if all ports flow evenly? You cannot do this with the naked eye.

Just curious how the "flow bench is useless" people deal with these issues?

I'm just going to keep this as a build thread. I'm not interested in arguing about the importance of flow numbers. The people involved in this build have a reputation that speaks for itself, and cannot be argued with. I have chosen to take their advice on this build.

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Post  68galaxie on March 12th 2012, 8:32 pm

Sorry, I am certainly not trying to argue with you at all.
I am very curious how one modifies cylinder heads without the aid of testing tools.

As you have said flow bench numbers don't tell the whole story - but are a fantastic development tool.
The flow bench can and is used to measure port velocities at different areas of the port, equalizing port velocity distribution,
measuring flow around the valve into the combustion chamber, determining if a port is stalling and backing up at certain lifts, how well the port "works" with a specific valve seat angle and width program.
2 ports that look identical can easily flow 30 cfm different.

I know you are saying the professionals know what works - trial and error?
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Post  derek528 on March 12th 2012, 8:47 pm

68galaxie wrote:Sorry, I am certainly not trying to argue with you at all.
I am very curious how one modifies cylinder heads without the aid of testing tools.

As you have said flow bench numbers don't tell the whole story - but are a fantastic development tool.
The flow bench can and is used to measure port velocities at different areas of the port, equalizing port velocity distribution,
measuring flow around the valve into the combustion chamber, determining if a port is stalling and backing up at certain lifts, how well the port "works" with a specific valve seat angle and width program.
2 ports that look identical can easily flow 30 cfm different.

I know you are saying the professionals know what works - trial and error?

I do agree that a flow bench is a great tool. I also believe that it is not a necessity, especiallay when an individual has been porting heads 8+ hours a day for 25 years, someone with that much experience just knows. For example, Tony bischoff was looking at my intake ports and says "these will never flow good at high valve lift" He has little to no experience with these individual head castings, he can just tell by the design. He was completely right, just at a glance he could gather that info.

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Post  68galaxie on March 12th 2012, 9:04 pm

derek528 wrote:
68galaxie wrote:Sorry, I am certainly not trying to argue with you at all.
I am very curious how one modifies cylinder heads without the aid of testing tools.

As you have said flow bench numbers don't tell the whole story - but are a fantastic development tool.
The flow bench can and is used to measure port velocities at different areas of the port, equalizing port velocity distribution,
measuring flow around the valve into the combustion chamber, determining if a port is stalling and backing up at certain lifts, how well the port "works" with a specific valve seat angle and width program.
2 ports that look identical can easily flow 30 cfm different.

I know you are saying the professionals know what works - trial and error?

I do agree that a flow bench is a great tool. I also believe that it is not a necessity, especiallay when an individual has been porting heads 8+ hours a day for 25 years, someone with that much experience just knows. For example, Tony bischoff was looking at my intake ports and says "these will never flow good at high valve lift" He has little to no experience with these individual head castings, he can just tell by the design. He was completely right, just at a glance he could gather that info.

How do you know Tony was right about the high lift flow without a flow test?
I am not trying to be an a__ hole here - just asking.


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Post  derek528 on March 12th 2012, 9:13 pm

68galaxie wrote:
derek528 wrote:
68galaxie wrote:Sorry, I am certainly not trying to argue with you at all.
I am very curious how one modifies cylinder heads without the aid of testing tools.

As you have said flow bench numbers don't tell the whole story - but are a fantastic development tool.
The flow bench can and is used to measure port velocities at different areas of the port, equalizing port velocity distribution,
measuring flow around the valve into the combustion chamber, determining if a port is stalling and backing up at certain lifts, how well the port "works" with a specific valve seat angle and width program.
2 ports that look identical can easily flow 30 cfm different.

I know you are saying the professionals know what works - trial and error?

I do agree that a flow bench is a great tool. I also believe that it is not a necessity, especiallay when an individual has been porting heads 8+ hours a day for 25 years, someone with that much experience just knows. For example, Tony bischoff was looking at my intake ports and says "these will never flow good at high valve lift" He has little to no experience with these individual head castings, he can just tell by the design. He was completely right, just at a glance he could gather that info.

How do you know Tony was right about the high lift flow without a flow test?
I am not trying to be an a__ hole here - just asking.



Because I've seen these castings flow tested from quite a few reputable sources. They stall out at about .600 lift.

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Post  stanggt on March 15th 2012, 4:04 pm

any updates?? Cool
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Post  derek528 on March 15th 2012, 5:02 pm

I'll be working on it saturday, I'll post updates after that. The goal is to get the heads ready to be cnc'ed. I'd like to get the block honed this weekend also.

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Post  stanggt on March 16th 2012, 8:05 pm

sweet. very interested in results. Cool
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Post  derek528 on March 18th 2012, 8:09 am

The block is honed. Did more head work. It should be finished by the end of april.

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Post  John Myrick on April 6th 2012, 3:41 am

Any updates ?
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