picking a balancer

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picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 4th 2012, 9:21 am

looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 4th 2012, 11:20 am

johndickjr wrote:looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

Choosing a harmonic balancer is mostly done by seeing which one has previously worked well in other similar applications. Some people choose by cost, some by looks and others by popularity.
The same balancer won't be the best in ALL applications so, do your homework.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 4th 2012, 1:58 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

Choosing a harmonic balancer is mostly done by seeing which one has previously worked well in other similar applications. Some people choose by cost, some by looks and others by popularity.
The same balancer won't be the best in ALL applications so, do your homework.
ok..well its not a 460 but a 300 ci straight six in my falcon, people who had it before me had it balanced etc.and they used a stock balancer .but it will shake lose the flywheel bolts after 3-5 passes, best et has been a 12.25 1/4 mile and 8.09 1/8 mile..i did a lot of research and every one says that the straight six performance motors must have a good balancer, they share the same balancer as a sbf....max rpm is 6500ish

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  dfree383 on July 4th 2012, 2:04 pm

ATi or innovators West are my choices.
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  Barney on July 4th 2012, 2:26 pm

I have always used ATI balances with good results.
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  BOSS 429 on July 4th 2012, 3:17 pm

ATI
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  the Coug on July 4th 2012, 3:24 pm

I am going to get another Fluid damper, I like to see my timing marks some of these balancers are shiny and are like shining a timing light into a mirror when you check the timing....and also I ran a fluid damper for 15 years so the hype is BS on they are suppose to be not good...
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  kim on July 5th 2012, 10:28 pm

fluid dampner are notorious for being impossible for a machine shop to balance, because the fluid couple is more dynamic than an elastimer band type balancer. At the low RPM used to spin-balance a rotating assembly, it doesn't creat enough heat for the fluid-dampner to start doing its thing. Atop that, a fluid-dampner failure is less evident to the operator, where an elastimer band failure is easy to track with a marked balancer where any rotation, resulting in perminant offset would indicate onset of balancer failure, a fluid-dampners function is hidden, till bearing failure makes ya go hummmm.

Fluid dampners do work, and they are a dynamic dampner, much like an elastimer band type dampner, but usually functioning within a narrower window of vibration dampening, due to heat requirements. Big diesle engines do well with BIG fluid dampners. Mechanical cancelation dampners like the rattler.......... avoid like the plague.

An SFI rated elastimer band dampner, is the best bang for the buck. Eventually, any of the products have to be replaced, you can only convert torsional load and vibration cancellation into heat for so long before something fails.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  Lem Evans on July 5th 2012, 11:58 pm

^^^^^^^^^

Is this a copy/paste ?

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  cool40 on July 6th 2012, 12:43 am

johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

Choosing a harmonic balancer is mostly done by seeing which one has previously worked well in other similar applications. Some people choose by cost, some by looks and others by popularity.
The same balancer won't be the best in ALL applications so, do your homework.
ok..well its not a 460 but a 300 ci straight six in my falcon, people who had it before me had it balanced etc.and they used a stock balancer .but it will shake lose the flywheel bolts after 3-5 passes, best et has been a 12.25 1/4 mile and 8.09 1/8 mile..i did a lot of research and every one says that the straight six performance motors must have a good balancer, they share the same balancer as a sbf....max rpm is 6500ish
it shakes the flywheel bolts loose in 3-5 passes? confused i would'nt think it would do that without a balancer...........
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  kim on July 6th 2012, 8:28 am

nope, not a copy paste. I typed it all my own self.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  Lem Evans on July 6th 2012, 8:33 am

You write like a pro Very Happy

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 6th 2012, 10:43 am

cool40 wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

Choosing a harmonic balancer is mostly done by seeing which one has previously worked well in other similar applications. Some people choose by cost, some by looks and others by popularity.
The same balancer won't be the best in ALL applications so, do your homework.
ok..well its not a 460 but a 300 ci straight six in my falcon, people who had it before me had it balanced etc.and they used a stock balancer .but it will shake lose the flywheel bolts after 3-5 passes, best et has been a 12.25 1/4 mile and 8.09 1/8 mile..i did a lot of research and every one says that the straight six performance motors must have a good balancer, they share the same balancer as a sbf....max rpm is 6500ish
it shakes the flywheel bolts loose in 3-5 passes? confused i would'nt think it would do that without a balancer...........

I was thinking the same thing but, I didn't know ... maybe, I don't think so; an in-line 4 cylinder could.
Years ago I built several 300 cid sixes for the local oval track guys and they ran an 8" NASCAR "BOSS" type damper that they got from somewhere. It was not SFI back then .and had exposed elastomer between the hub and outer ring. I am not sure but, I think it had a "V" belt pulley as part of the outer ring.
An OEM production BOSS 429 damper, (or some brand's replacement), would work like that did as it doesn't use a separate sleeve but, it is only about 7 1/2".

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  cool40 on July 6th 2012, 3:01 pm

is'nt a 300 internal balance? confused
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Re: picking a balancer

Post  whatbumper on July 6th 2012, 4:35 pm

I prefer ATI. But to each their own.

On a different note, most guys running the 481x motors don't even use a harmonic balancer.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  466cj on July 6th 2012, 5:02 pm

ATI are some of the best and they can tune the damper for the application, at least they used to. I am not so sure the damper will fix your flywheel bolt issue. I'd recommend using red loctite on the flywheel bolts.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 6th 2012, 7:59 pm

cool40 wrote:is'nt a 300 internal balance? confused

YEP ... this 300 in-line 6 cylinder here isn't...?

BOSS 429's sure are.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 6th 2012, 8:08 pm

johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:looking at balancers, which one is best..tci rattler...west invocations..ATI ...fluid damper...

Choosing a harmonic balancer is mostly done by seeing which one has previously worked well in other similar applications. Some people choose by cost, some by looks and others by popularity.
The same balancer won't be the best in ALL applications so, do your homework.
ok..well its not a 460 but a 300 ci straight six in my falcon, people who had it before me had it balanced etc.and they used a stock balancer .but it will shake lose the flywheel bolts after 3-5 passes, best et has been a 12.25 1/4 mile and 8.09 1/8 mile..i did a lot of research and every one says that the straight six performance motors must have a good balancer, they share the same balancer as a sbf....max rpm is 6500ish

They DON'T share the same damper as a small block Ford ... just the same dimensional SIZE damper; same with the flywheel.
The V6 can use a Small block Ford damper NOT an IN-LINE 6 cylinder.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 7th 2012, 2:45 am

both the 240-300 have the same size snout..as a sbf..but is about 1/4 inch longer , and if you use a alt belt etc it will be off if you use a 302 balancer, but other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix


Last edited by johndickjr on July 7th 2012, 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 7th 2012, 2:47 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
cool40 wrote:is'nt a 300 internal balance? confused

YEP ... this 300 in-line 6 cylinder here isn't...?

BOSS 429's sure are.
then 240-300 six motors are internal balanced at 0..problem is that the crank is about 3 feet long and it vibrates a lot, at a low rpm the stock balancer work fine, but crank it 6500 and it shakes its self apart without using a good balancer like a ati..west invocations..etc..

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 7th 2012, 10:38 am

johndickjr wrote:both the 240-300 have the same size snout..as a sbf..but is about 1/4 inch longer , and if you use a alt belt etc it will be off if you use a 302 balancer, but other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix

ALL... repeat ALL... OEM Ford Small Block dampers are either 28.2 or 50 in/oz EXTERNAL balance and the ones for the iN-LINE 6 cylinder are NOT.
What about that fact don't you understand...?

AGAIN ... use somebody's aftermarket version of the BOSS 429 damper.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 7th 2012, 1:33 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:both the 240-300 have the same size snout..as a sbf..but is about 1/4 inch longer , and if you use a alt belt etc it will be off if you use a 302 balancer, but other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix

ALL... repeat ALL... OEM Ford Small Block dampers are either 28.2 or 50 in/oz EXTERNAL balance and the ones for the iN-LINE 6 cylinder are NOT.
What about that fact don't you understand...?

AGAIN ... use somebody's aftermarket version of the BOSS 429 damper.
..what i am saying is that the snout size on a sbf and a 240-300 crank are the same size ...i know that factory sbf are 28 or 50 oz..what i am saying is you can use a aftermarket balancer that is 0 balanced that is made for a sbf on a 240-300 motor...

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 7th 2012, 4:13 pm

[quote="johndickjr"]
johndickjr wrote: other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix

.what i am saying is that the snout size on a sbf and a 240-300 crank are the same size ...

So, the actual SBF and the straight 6 dampers are NOT the same or interchangeable from one to the other without some modification ... correct...?
Just their snout diameters and seal diameters are the same.

IF they were the SAME, they would be directly interchangeable.

The snout diameters and seal diameters are also the same on a V6 or a BOSS Big Block Ford so, they must also be the same then...? I don't think so ... they will physically fit is all.

"It's the same as this ... except different here", LOL.

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  johndickjr on July 7th 2012, 10:03 pm

[quote="rmcomprandy"]
johndickjr wrote:
johndickjr wrote: other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix

.what i am saying is that the snout size on a sbf and a 240-300 crank are the same size ...

So, the actual SBF and the straight 6 dampers are NOT the same or interchangeable from one to the other without some modification ... correct...?
Just their snout diameters and seal diameters are the same.

IF they were the SAME, they would be directly interchangeable.

The snout diameters and seal diameters are also the same on a V6 or a BOSS Big Block Ford so, they must also be the same then...? I don't think so ... they will physically fit is all.

"It's the same as this ... except different here", LOL.
lol..same snout size..yes..that is it..they are close enough that is what we use..i was just asking which one is better now days then the next..in order to use a 0 balance sbf balancer it may or may not have to be milled some..

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Re: picking a balancer

Post  rmcomprandy on July 8th 2012, 10:23 am

[quote="johndickjr"]
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
johndickjr wrote: other wise they are the same , timing marks may be off but that is a easy fix

.what i am saying is that the snout size on a sbf and a 240-300 crank are the same size ...

So, the actual SBF and the straight 6 dampers are NOT the same or interchangeable from one to the other without some modification ... correct...?
Just their snout diameters and seal diameters are the same.

IF they were the SAME, they would be directly interchangeable.

The snout diameters and seal diameters are also the same on a V6 or a BOSS Big Block Ford so, they must also be the same then...? I don't think so ... they will physically fit is all.

"It's the same as this ... except different here", LOL.

lol..same snout size..yes..that is it..they are close enough that is what we use..i was just asking which one is better now days then the next..in order to use a 0 balance sbf balancer it may or may not have to be milled some..

Once again ... USE an aftermarket damper for a BOSS 429.

With THAT much vibration, I would suspect you have other issues other than the harmonic damper unless what you have been using is not "0" balance.

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