Direct clutches return spring length

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Post  manofmerc on August 6th 2015, 5:42 pm

I started a new topic but this pertains to my post below about my burned direct (third gear) clutches .After looking at several pictures in different c6 manuals I noticed the return springs in the pictures were longer than what I have in my transmission .I went to the 460 forum and found a spec of 1.400 .The springs I have are 1.200-1.220 and I am using six of these .This drum I have is probably much newer than my 1968 fe c6 and I probably used the spring retainer from the original transmission .In the pics the springs are taller than the inner hub on the clutch drum .On mine they are the same height .I am wondering if that was another factor in my clutches failing .I spoke with Jay at Broader he seems to not think so .I cant help but be curious .I contacted a guy and he is looking for some of these return springs for me .I have .057 clearance to the snap ring but before I go any further I want to find out about these springs .No need to get in a hurry now .Tomorrow the parts guy will call me and I will know what he has but do any of you think this makes a difference .Thank you all for the help this is a good learning experience for me .Doug

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Post  supervel45 on August 6th 2015, 6:12 pm

I had a factory 4 clutch drum with the oil holes drilled for the band, that was a Ford factory core. It had all of the 18 spring pockets filled with springs. The springs used a smaller diameter wire than the regular 3 clutch drums with 10 springs, and if I remember correctly they were a little longer. I was going to mention that, but since the trans shifted good before it went south, and you had a clutch clearance problem, I did not think that was your issue. If you can get the lighter longer springs, and fill all of the pockets, I think it is better, as they seem not to twist as much and get out of alignment with the extra springs evenly all around the piston. I question your spring count, as all I have seen are 10 offset spring, or 18 with all pockets filled, in all of my factory drums?


Last edited by supervel45 on August 6th 2015, 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : meant 18 springs not 19 as previously posted)

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Post  supervel45 on August 6th 2015, 10:55 pm

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154188 I found this and it looks like Frank likes the 18 springs also in high HP apps. I don't have my old parts here to measure the springs for you, but I clearly remember the wire in them was much smaller than the latter 10 spring drums 3 clutch drums. Do not make a mistake on them as it will not work, and you will have to pull the trans again if you use the heavier spring, don't ask how I know.

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Post  Gregaust on August 7th 2015, 7:08 am

Ok . From my notes . The way it goes is the 1.400 springs are used as a set of 10 . The 1.200" are used as set of 18.

Frank likes 18 @ 1.400"

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Post  supervel45 on August 7th 2015, 7:25 am

I bet with only 6 springs and the tight clutch stack, the piston was not releasing fast enough, causing the clutches to drag.

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Post  manofmerc on August 7th 2015, 7:49 am

Finally I believe WE are coming up with a solution to my problem .When I saw the different spring lengths I became suspicious of mine .And you confirmed it .Now to find these different springs .A company in N.J. Transco is supposed to call me today with some spring information .Thanks for your info Greg&Supervel .I hope others can see this post and learn something also .Thankfully I am not in a rush so I have time to get the correct springs for my clutch drum.Doug Cool

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Post  supervel45 on August 7th 2015, 10:00 am

I think the 18 pack light springs are kind of had to come by. I could not find anything on the net for them. I still think they are longer than the 10 pack spring, but I maybe mistaken, and I am positive the spring wire is a smaller diameter. If you have a 1968 C6, you most likely have a 30/30 spline input shaft, so don't put it in backwards. Long splines go to the inside of the transmission. I sure you probably knew this, but better safe then sorry and maybe someone else reading here can use the info. Late shafts are 30/31 spline and only go in one way. Let us know what Transco say's, I bet they don't get that question to often.

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Post  Gregaust on August 8th 2015, 4:52 am

I'm sure only 6 springs and being the lighter short springs definitely would have contributed to the issue . More likely as a drag in first .

As much as I don't like recommending someone if you're stuck have you tried Frank ??

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Post  DeepRoots on August 9th 2015, 10:34 am

manofmerc wrote:Finally I believe WE are coming up with a solution to my problem .When I saw the different spring lengths I became suspicious of mine .And you confirmed it .Now to find these different springs .A company in N.J. Transco is supposed to call me today with some spring information .Thanks for your info Greg&Supervel .I hope others can see this post and learn something also .Thankfully I am not in a rush so I have time to get the correct springs for my clutch drum.Doug Cool

Hey Doug,
I've got three parts trans in scrapped condition in my shop. If you need me to mail you a bucket of springs, lemme know.
I'm probably offshore for another two weeks tho, leaving NYC headed to Nova Scotia, then down to Louisiana in the morning.

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Post  manofmerc on August 9th 2015, 2:03 pm

I first spoke with them on Thursday well they did what they said and called me Friday am.They are sending me ten 1.400 direct clutch return springs .They had found the ones I wanted and called me when they said they would .Their company is located in N.J. and I am in Ga. So Tuesday or Wednesday I should know more .I hope that with my increased clearances and more release on my clutches my high gear pack will last longer.Drew thanks for the offer I might take you up on it sometimes .If it was me I would save those parts they are getting harder to find .I will check back in when my springs arrive .Transcos #973 227 2487 thanks again for replys and help .I went racing Saturday in the comet HOT HOT HOT best time 7.02 @96 mph went out in the third .Won a couple lost a couple had a blast!! Very Happy

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Post  manofmerc on August 12th 2015, 6:19 am

I got my springs but they are 1.200 they sent me 10 .I was told my return spring would be 1.400 kinda disappointed but not surprised .I can fill all the pockets with the 1.200 springs but at this stage I am determined to go with the 1.400.I just don't know if I can find them .Those short springs are barely above the hub on the clutch drum.The snap ring is probably .250 or more from the top of the springs .I was mistake about the name of the trans parts co.It is Fatsco transmission parts in N.J. Nice enough and prompt delivery but wrong parts .I will be calling them this am.Doug

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Post  supervel45 on August 14th 2015, 12:59 am

Update. And please take a picture of the spring or springs for others. I could not find one good pic of either spring on google anywhere, and I looked quite a bit. I suspect the light early 18 pack springs are about extinct.

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Post  manofmerc on August 14th 2015, 7:07 am

Supervel there just isn't much info or updated pictures on c6s .The best info is right here .The way I discovered their might be a difference in the springs was by looking at the pictures in my 20 year old Haynes manual.And in another book I have that sucks other than the pictures By George Reid .How to modify ford c4and c6 .Please be aware I don't build transmissons for a living .I just try to keep mine up and running .I just happen to have three cars with c6s .I don't know this for sure but believe the shorter springs were in the earlier c6s .Just a guess but probably early 70s and back .This clutch drum I have is a modified one from Broader it holds five clutchs .Probably I installed my original clutch piston into this drum not realizing I needed different or more springs .My other c6s haven't had this happen to them .My drag car has the longer springs to the best of my memory.And my other c6 (1969 428) has the short ones again from memory .If I could I would post a picture but I don't know how maybe somehow I can get something to you .This will help others .The problem is we need a source for these obscure parts other than a core transmission .Pretty soon this stuff will dry up .Still waiting on my springs so I can get everything assembled .I am trying to be patient without much luck .Things are slow for me right now .I have all my welding customers caught up and some free time for myself so waiting on my parts to come .Thanks Supervel .Doug In Ga. Smile

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Post  supervel45 on August 14th 2015, 2:18 pm

I found a decent picture of a 10 spring pack drum in the George Reid book. Yes they look like the 1.4" lenght as the retainer is about a 1/4" above the hub, without the snap ring installed. So I concede that the short spring is the lighter one, and that is what they sent you apparently. My speculation is the pressure for the 10 heavy springs and the 18 light springs is the same when measured in total force, and Ford changed as a cost saving measure. Think about this Doug, when you shift at 6,000 rpm, and the band grabs that drum almost to a solid stop, the piston still has a lot of centrifugal force, and is going to want to keep spinning and twist the spring pack. This maybe why Ford used these drums in the early Hi Performance (read high RPM) units? Also it seems the oil holes around the drum were for the early cast bands. I am with Gregaust, Do not run 18 of the 1.4" heavy springs, as you may get 2-3 shift cut loose if you do not have enough line pressure, if you only run 10, I see no benefit over what you have. I would use the (18) 1.2" springs you have. If you only had 6 short springs and .030" clutch clearance, I think you found your problem, and adding 12 more springs and almost .030" clearance should solve it.

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Post  manofmerc on August 19th 2015, 6:00 am

Supervel I am going to try ten of the longer springs .Finally my 1.400 springs came in .I thought about using eighteen of my short springs but really I have more confidence in the 1.400 springs .And I had nine short springs and.037 clearance originally .Using my compressor tool it takes more squeeze for sure with the ten 1.400 springs .I assembled my transmission and installed it Tuesday .I still have a few items to hook up .My headers haven't arrived so it might be a while before I get my comet going .Supervel How you like that George Reed book doesn't it suck.The only good thing is the pictures .I was so disappointed whenever mine come in the mail .I believe you went to some effort to help me with my transmission issues .I want to thank you and others on the forum .Please learn from this thread that is what it is for .This is information for everybody learn from it I certainly did .Whenever I get my car going I will post the results .Thanks everybody .Doug

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Post  supervel45 on August 19th 2015, 2:46 pm

I just looked at it on line at DIY Ford. Not real impressed either. It seems like there is not much good C6 information in one place, and it take multable sources, experience, talking to other old C6 builders, and years of experience, to get much on these transmissions. I called both of my old transmission builder friends that I have known since the 80's, and they were not much help on the old springs either. They where like Frank, and said go with 18 heavy springs on a trans brake, or high line pressure race trans. For what you have I would stick with 10, like you are doing with the heavy springs. Let us know how it works out. By the way what do you think of that Tunnel Port FE 454 for sale in the stuff wanted section?

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Post  res0rli9 on August 19th 2015, 6:43 pm

BadShoeProductions ... He is a member here and has real good video's.
If you buy from this site you get a discount on them.
www.BadShoeProductions.com

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Post  DeepRoots on August 20th 2015, 7:04 pm

res0rli9,
Much respect for Ken, his videos are very great for a first time c6 builder.
However they would be 100% useless in this thread or to answer Doug's questions.

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Post  Gregaust on August 21st 2015, 5:14 am

The 10 @ 1.400" springs will do you well. Where I mentioned Frank specifies the extras is in his transbrake setups.

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Post  manofmerc on August 21st 2015, 5:24 am

Like you said supervel good c6 info comes from several sources .In that cockeyed George Reid book no mention about how many or what size return springs go into the direct clutch drum .Also no explanation of the different return springs for the reverse low clutch pack (you know the individual springs versus the springs with a retainer).And he copied the specs. from a manual.C6 ford racing builds are hard to come by.Between this forum and 460ford.com is the best c6 info to my knowledge .All I need now is for my headers to arrive so I can install them and rework my H pipe .My new headers will have a ball flange instead of the traditional three bolt flange .Hopefully the newer style flange will give me some additional clearance at my shifter cable and trans. pan .Supervel45 that guy with the 427 tunnelport is giving it away that thing is a ripper!!! With that block being hard blocked it probably wouldn't be a good street engine but my god it is an excellent drag racer $6500 is a great price .I have a 460 in my comet drag car my best et has been a 6.83 @99 mph .I would love to have that TP in my comet ! Guys at the track don't know what exactly my 460 is can you imagine their expression if I told them I had a 427tp?? Thanks guys Drew take care hope to see you again and Supervel you have been a great help and hopefully some other guy building a c6 will get some info from this post .I know I have .Yours truly Doug Bray

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Post  manofmerc on August 21st 2015, 5:28 am

Greg we were posting at the same time I took your advise and went with the ten springs I believe my c6 will be in good shape whenever I get it going .Got to watch some aussie drag racing the other night you guys seem to be having a blast! .Thank you Gregaust your postings are always informative to me .Doug

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Post  Frank Merkl on August 21st 2015, 4:22 pm

put all 18 1.400" length springs in with race line pressures and .012"- .013" per clutch and steel . stock app is 10
Frank
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Post  manofmerc on August 22nd 2015, 8:17 am

Frank I come up with ten of the longer springs .And after having one of my pressure plates milled I am at .062 clearance to the snap ring .Pressure was 135 warm .Hopefully this will cure my problem .Waiting on headers now .Thanks Mr. Merkyl.Doug

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