351W build

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351W build

Post  Hangman on April 17th 2016, 6:15 pm

...........................


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Re: 351W build

Post  FalconEh on April 17th 2016, 7:55 pm

Hangman wrote:Going to make this first part short, then get into details.

I have an '86 F-150 with a 351W, C-6 and 3.50 gears.  Too many rpms on the highway, so put in a rebuilt AOD.  Engine struggled at low rpms (overdrive) to keep truck moving, so a new cam was sourced.  Put the cam in and had a loud tick (during and after break-in).  After trying a few things that didn't help, decided to build a new engine (the current one was a rebuild that I was never happy with anyway).

Here's the new engines build:

351W engine out of a 1989 van (non-roller)
C/R is at 9.79:1
Crank turned .010"/.010"
Clevite .010" under main bearings - MS1432P10
Clevite .010" under rod bearings - CB831P10
D.S.S. E Series Forged Pistons - 8750-4030
Sealed Power rings - E-251K30
Conn rods were good, didn't recondition
Clevite Cam bearings - SH510S
Comp Cams camshaft - 35-230-3
Comp Cams lifters - 832-16
Comp Cams timing chain - 2138
Comp Cams valve springs - 942-16
Comp Cams retainers - 768-16
Comp Cams locks - 601-16
Stock length pushrods
Stock pedestal style rockers
Fel-Pro gaskets
Melling standard volume oil pump
E7TE heads, milled .010", standard valve job, guides looked good, so untouched
Mechanical fuel pump with two-piece eccentric
Comp Cams break-in lube - 159
Also used lube that came with the cam
Weiand Stealth intake
Edelbrock 1406 carb
Valvoline 10w30 oil
Engine was primed on stand and everything looked good

**The only parts that were used on both engines were : Oil pan, oil pump, fuel pump, intake, exhaust manifolds, cam and lifters.**


When I assembled this engine, all the clearances checked out on the tighter side, but with in specs.  Got this one running and there was that same tick again.  Here's what I checked and tried:
-Lifter preload was at Intake - .072" & Exhaust - .068" (talked to tech at Comp and said it was good but optimum was .040")
-Shimmed rockers .020" to take preload down to .043" (this was a test to see if there was a change and shorter pushrods were needed)
-Pulled fuel pump to see if noise was coming from there
-Pulled accessory belts and ran (another shot in the dark)
-No exhaust leaks
-Used stethoscope to try to locate source, but it's resonating and can't pin point it
-Pulled timing cover and removed outer ring on fuel pump eccentric - some noise went away, so ordered a new eccentric
-Timing set at 10 degrees btdc
-Ran dial indicator on tip of pushrod to check cam lobes (all lobes came with in .001" of what they are supposed to be and smooth movement)
-Pulled lifters and checked faces, all look good
-Noise SEEMED to be coming from cylinder 5 or 6, four NEW lifters, no change
-No marks inside valve covers to indicate a rocker is touching
-With timing light hooked up, it seems the noise is true to the camshaft (every two turns of crank)

I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do next.  The techs (three of them) at Comp Cams told me they are stuck too.  I really need to get this thing on the road.  Talked to my machinist, doesn't know either.  All these guys are mainly Chevy guys, so they may be missing something.  I have put together many SBF engines and have never had a problem like this.  I really don't want to pull this engine, but if I have to...

I really appreciate any and all help.  If I forgot something, let me know.

I would lean to the cam/lifters, which were recycled from the last engine and the tick seemed to appear at the same time, guessing no exhaust leaks. I would also have a closer look at the valve covers and make sure there are no interference problems.
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Re: 351W build

Post  69F100 on April 17th 2016, 8:06 pm

What size cam is it
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Re: 351W build

Post  supervel45 on April 17th 2016, 8:14 pm

FalconEh wrote:
Hangman wrote:Going to make this first part short, then get into details.

I have an '86 F-150 with a 351W, C-6 and 3.50 gears.  Too many rpms on the highway, so put in a rebuilt AOD.  Engine struggled at low rpms (overdrive) to keep truck moving, so a new cam was sourced.  Put the cam in and had a loud tick (during and after break-in).  After trying a few things that didn't help, decided to build a new engine (the current one was a rebuild that I was never happy with anyway).

Here's the new engines build:

351W engine out of a 1989 van (non-roller)
C/R is at 9.79:1
Crank turned .010"/.010"
Clevite .010" under main bearings - MS1432P10
Clevite .010" under rod bearings - CB831P10
D.S.S. E Series Forged Pistons - 8750-4030
Sealed Power rings - E-251K30
Conn rods were good, didn't recondition
Clevite Cam bearings - SH510S
Comp Cams camshaft - 35-230-3
Comp Cams lifters - 832-16
Comp Cams timing chain - 2138
Comp Cams valve springs - 942-16
Comp Cams retainers - 768-16
Comp Cams locks - 601-16
Stock length pushrods
Stock pedestal style rockers
Fel-Pro gaskets
Melling standard volume oil pump
E7TE heads, milled .010", standard valve job, guides looked good, so untouched
Mechanical fuel pump with two-piece eccentric
Comp Cams break-in lube - 159
Also used lube that came with the cam
Weiand Stealth intake
Edelbrock 1406 carb
Valvoline 10w30 oil
Engine was primed on stand and everything looked good

**The only parts that were used on both engines were : Oil pan, oil pump, fuel pump, intake, exhaust manifolds, cam and lifters.**


When I assembled this engine, all the clearances checked out on the tighter side, but with in specs.  Got this one running and there was that same tick again.  Here's what I checked and tried:
-Lifter preload was at Intake - .072" & Exhaust - .068" (talked to tech at Comp and said it was good but optimum was .040")
-Shimmed rockers .020" to take preload down to .043" (this was a test to see if there was a change and shorter pushrods were needed)
-Pulled fuel pump to see if noise was coming from there
-Pulled accessory belts and ran (another shot in the dark)
-No exhaust leaks
-Used stethoscope to try to locate source, but it's resonating and can't pin point it
-Pulled timing cover and removed outer ring on fuel pump eccentric - some noise went away, so ordered a new eccentric
-Timing set at 10 degrees btdc
-Ran dial indicator on tip of pushrod to check cam lobes (all lobes came with in .001" of what they are supposed to be and smooth movement)
-Pulled lifters and checked faces, all look good
-Noise SEEMED to be coming from cylinder 5 or 6, four NEW lifters, no change
-No marks inside valve covers to indicate a rocker is touching
-With timing light hooked up, it seems the noise is true to the camshaft (every two turns of crank)

I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do next.  The techs (three of them) at Comp Cams told me they are stuck too.  I really need to get this thing on the road.  Talked to my machinist, doesn't know either.  All these guys are mainly Chevy guys, so they may be missing something.  I have put together many SBF engines and have never had a problem like this.  I really don't want to pull this engine, but if I have to...

I really appreciate any and all help.  If I forgot something, let me know.

I would lean to the cam/lifters, which were recycled from the last engine and the tick seemed to appear at the same time, guessing no exhaust leaks. I would also have a closer look at the valve covers and make sure there are no interference problems.

^^^^^Same. Sometimes you get a bad or sticky lifter. Get a new set and give it a try. When you have time pull the 16 old ones down and find out which one/ones are bad or contaminated. I would not throw them away if they are new or low mileage.

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Re: 351W build

Post  whitefield on April 17th 2016, 8:53 pm

Check spring installed height and spring psi . If they are installed wrong could cause lifter collapse or springs to make the noise.

I also agree I would change the lifters and try it first . Oil psi check along with rocker arm to valve cover check. Let us know what you find . Good luck
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Re: 351W build

Post  QtrWarrior on April 17th 2016, 9:51 pm

Being one to think of all possibilities.....

Is it possible that it's an exhaust leak...
They can produce a "ticking" noise, depending on the size of the leak...
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Re: 351W build

Post  gmsmkr on April 17th 2016, 10:14 pm

A intake can also cause a tick if it has a small hole on the China wall from improper sealing... and check your valve spring shims one may be damaged and causing the valve spring to walk
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Re: 351W build

Post  supervel45 on April 17th 2016, 10:49 pm

whitefield wrote:Check spring installed height and spring psi . If they are installed wrong could cause lifter collapse or springs to make the noise.  

I also agree  I would change the lifters and try it first . Oil psi check along with rocker arm to valve cover check.  Let us know what you find . Good luck

They would have to be way out of spec. to do what you describe. Comp Cams uses 370lb plus Dual Springs on BBF with their Magnum cams those lifters.

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Re: 351W build

Post  rmcomprandy on April 17th 2016, 10:50 pm

Hangman wrote:

**The only parts that were used on both engines were : Oil pan, oil pump, fuel pump, intake, exhaust manifolds, cam and lifters.**[/color]

When I assembled this engine, all the clearances checked out on the tighter side, but with in specs.  Got this one running and there was that same tick again.  Here's what I checked and tried:
-Lifter preload was at Intake - .072" & Exhaust - .068" (talked to tech at Comp and said it was good but optimum was .040")
-Shimmed rockers .020" to take preload down to .043" (this was a test to see if there was a change and shorter pushrods were needed)
-Pulled fuel pump to see if noise was coming from there
-Pulled accessory belts and ran (another shot in the dark)
-No exhaust leaks
-Used stethoscope to try to locate source, but it's resonating and can't pin point it
-Pulled timing cover and removed outer ring on fuel pump eccentric - some noise went away, so ordered a new eccentric
-Timing set at 10 degrees btdc
-Ran dial indicator on tip of pushrod to check cam lobes (all lobes came with in .001" of what they are supposed to be and smooth movement)
-Pulled lifters and checked faces, all look good
-Noise SEEMED to be coming from cylinder 5 or 6, four NEW lifters, no change
-No marks inside valve covers to indicate a rocker is touching
-With timing light hooked up, it seems the noise is true to the camshaft (every two turns of crank)

I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do next.  The techs (three of them) at Comp Cams told me they are stuck too.  I really need to get this thing on the road.  Talked to my machinist, doesn't know either.  All these guys are mainly Chevy guys, so they may be missing something.  I have put together many SBF engines and have never had a problem like this.  I really don't want to pull this engine, but if I have to...

I really appreciate any and all help.  If I forgot something, let me know.

Just going off what you say ... I would suspect some kind of exhaust leak SOMEWHERE. OR, a bad lifter in the hydraulics.
Lifter by-passing oil inside, not staying pumped-up...?
Exhaust manifold not completely sealing to the head...?
Cracked exhaust manifold...?
Cracked intake manifold at the exhaust crossover...?
Something to do with a spark plug hole...?
Bad exhaust valve guide(s)...?
Bad exhaust valve stem(s)...?
Bad sealing exhaust valve seat...?
Slightly blown head gasket...?

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Re: 351W build

Post  Hangman on April 18th 2016, 3:56 am

Cam is:
Rpm range: 600-4800
110 deg lobe seperation
106 deg intake centerline
Duration: I-250, E-260
Lift: I-.461, E-.474

For the springs, I got what Comp recommended for this cam.
For the lifters, I did pull a couple apart...barely. Some of them I couldn't push the plunger down to get the wire locks out. Others I could. Which way is correct? I always thought they should bleed down after a couple of minutes. These were like they were solid.

For exhaust gaskets, I'm using the standard Fel-pro with the perf steel on one side. Is there a better gasket or what can I put on them to make sure they don't leak?

Each time I pulled the intake, I checked the gaskets and they look like they are sealing good.

I'm going to post a link to a video later, at work, on lunch. Just wanted to answer what I could now. I'll add more info when I get back on a computer.

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Re: 351W build

Post  supervel45 on April 18th 2016, 4:18 am

Hangman wrote:Cam is:
Rpm range: 600-4800
110 deg lobe seperation
106 deg intake centerline
Duration: I-250, E-260
Lift: I-.461, E-.474

For the springs, I got what Comp recommended for this cam.
For the lifters, I did pull a couple apart...barely.  Some of them I couldn't push the plunger down to get the wire locks out.  Others I could. Which way is correct?  I always thought they should bleed down after a couple of minutes.  These were like they were solid.

For exhaust gaskets, I'm using the standard Fel-pro with the perf steel on one side. Is there a better gasket or what can I put on them to make sure they don't leak?

Each time I pulled the intake, I checked the gaskets and they look like they are sealing good.

I'm going to post a link to a video later, at work, on lunch.  Just wanted to answer what I could now.  I'll add more info when I get back on a computer.

I use a triple OOO steel Ball Bearing in a pen vise to take apart and assemble lifters. A small C-Clamp could be used also with it also.

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Re: 351W build

Post  Hangman on April 18th 2016, 9:59 am

..............


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Re: 351W build

Post  rmcomprandy on April 18th 2016, 12:06 pm

Good Luck ...

You vehemently say that everything is almost perfect so, that noise must be a figment of your imagination; (or SOMETHING is or going wrong); just because it was OK last week does not mean it is OK today.

Doing the process of elimination, it is probably something to do with what you RE-used; (which you say was checked by someone and deemed to be good).

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Re: 351W build

Post  whitefield on April 18th 2016, 1:18 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:Good Luck ...

You vehemently say that everything is almost perfect so, that noise must be a figment of your imagination; (or SOMETHING is or going wrong); just because it was OK last week does not mean it is OK today.

Doing the process of elimination, it is probably something to do with what you RE-used; (which you say was checked by someone and deemed to be good).

X2 ^^^^
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Re: 351W build

Post  Hangman on April 18th 2016, 6:03 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:Good Luck ...

You vehemently say that everything is almost perfect so, that noise must be a figment of your imagination; (or SOMETHING is or going wrong); just because it was OK last week does not mean it is OK today.

Doing the process of elimination, it is probably something to do with what you RE-used; (which you say was checked by someone and deemed to be good).

Not sure how it go to this. I just tried to answer questions and suggestions as best as I could. For the valve guides and stems, I have no real way to check them and had to take the machinists word that they were OK. If there's a way I could check them myself, I would gladly do that. I did say I was going to double-check for manifold cracks and leaks, also asked about better exhaust gaskets. I also asked about what to look for in the lifters and if they should feel solid or bleed down some in time. I am not saying everything is good as I know there is a problem somewhere. I'm not sure how I came across like that. Was something I wrote taken out of context or what?

Guys, I really respect your knowledge and opinions. I'm taking all the advice given to me and am going to check all of them out (at least what I can do here for now). If it comes down to tearing things apart more and getting them checked by someone with the tools to do so, I will. You gave me a lot of good info so far, and I intend to check it all out. I apologize if I came across the wrong way or said something wrong. I really do need the help and the guys on here are the most knowledgeable people I can think of for Ford engines. So, with that said, If you still don't want to help any more, I understand.


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Re: 351W build

Post  whitefield on April 18th 2016, 6:27 pm

Hangman wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Good Luck ...

You vehemently say that everything is almost perfect so, that noise must be a figment of your imagination; (or SOMETHING is or going wrong); just because it was OK last week does not mean it is OK today.

Doing the process of elimination, it is probably something to do with what you RE-used; (which you say was checked by someone and deemed to be good).

Not sure how it go to this.  I just tried to answer questions and suggestions as best as I could.  For the valve guides and stems, I have no real way to check them and had to take the machinists word that they were OK.  If there's a way I could check them myself, I would gladly do that.  I did say I was going to double-check for manifold cracks and leaks, also asked about better exhaust gaskets.  I also asked about what to look for in the lifters and if they should feel solid or bleed down some in time.  I am not saying everything is good as I know there is a problem somewhere.  I'm not sure how I came across like that.  Was something I wrote taken out of context or what?



Guys, I really respect your knowledge and opinions.  I'm taking all the advice given to me and am going to check all of them out (at least what I can do here for now).  If it comes down to tearing things apart more and getting them checked by someone with the tools to do so, I will.  You gave me a lot of good info so far, and I intend to check it all out.  I apologize if I came across the wrong way or said something wrong.  I really do need the help and the guys on here are the most knowledgeable people I can think of for Ford engines.  So, with that said, If you still don't want to help any more, I understand.


I don't think they or we I mind helping , but something is a miss here. ! If it is all good and in spec then there would no be a problem..


Who installed the valve springs and cam bearings? What is the oil psi with a mechanical gauge?. Suggestion remove all of the valve train components pertaining to the cam shaft that was in the old motor and install deferent (new parts). Spring psi needs to be checked .
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Re: 351W build

Post  whitefield on April 18th 2016, 6:31 pm

Hangman wrote:At home on an actual computer, so I will try to answer suggestions so far and include a short video at the end.

whitefield wrote:Check spring installed height and spring psi . If they are installed wrong could cause lifter collapse or springs to make the noise.  

I also agree  I would change the lifters and try it first . Oil psi check along with rocker arm to valve cover check.  Let us know what you find . Good luck

Comp lists spring psi at 339 lbs/in.  I can check installed height, but have no way to check actual psi.  How can I do that?  Do I have to pull heads and take them to my machinist to check?  Oil pressure is high on the factory gauge.  I used a 1/2" DeWalt drill (approx. 1200 rpm) to prime and couldn't use full trigger as it overflowed the heads with the valve covers off.

QtrWarrior wrote:Being one to think of all possibilities.....

Is it possible that it's an exhaust leak...
They can produce a "ticking" noise, depending on the size of the leak...

I'm pretty sure it's not an exhaust leak, but have not ruled it out 100%.  I need to get under there and really look closely for any leaks.

gmsmkr wrote:A intake can also cause a tick if it has a small hole on the China wall from improper sealing... and check your valve spring shims one may be damaged and causing the valve spring to walk

No spring shims.  Never thought about china wall leak.  I know the intake has to come off again, so will double check to see if it was sealed or not.  Will also take more time to ensure a proper seal next time it goes back on.

rmcomprandy wrote:

Just going off what you say ... I would suspect some kind of exhaust leak SOMEWHERE. OR, a bad lifter in the hydraulics.
Lifter by-passing oil inside, not staying pumped-up...?  
Would the suspect lifter be the one that does not hold pressure and not solid like the others?
Is there anything specific I should look for?

Exhaust manifold not completely sealing to the head...?
Going to check visually as best as I can.
Cracked exhaust manifold...?  
Didn't notice any when installed, will double-check

Cracked intake manifold at the exhaust crossover...?  
Just looking around at that area and didn't notice any
Something to do with a spark plug hole...?  
Have to pull plugs, will check
Bad exhaust valve guide(s)...?  
Machinist checked and they were good
Bad exhaust valve stem(s)...?
Machinist checked and they were good (I'm going by his word on these two)
Bad sealing exhaust valve seat...?
See below
Slightly blown head gasket...?
Will a leakdown test be best to check for this and valve seat?
You've given me a bunch of homework, I better get busy.

supervel45 wrote:I use a triple OOO steel Ball Bearing in a pen vise to take apart and assemble lifters. A small C-Clamp could be used also with it also.

So the solid ones that don't want to push in are correct?  The soft ones could be dirty inside or possibly bad?

Here's the video:


I couldn't do much about the exhaust and fan noise.  You can hear the ticking though.  I also get some of the "sewing machine" sound too.  How much is too much of that?

Another thing I just thought of, this really has me wondering.  In the video below, I was checking the cam lobes for lift.  I zeroed the dial indicator at the base of the cam and slowly rotated it.  I noticed right before the ramp of the lobe, the gauge dropped .001" on a couple of lobes.  Could this be a problem?  I was thinking if the lifter floated across that dropped, the lobe would "slap" the lifter.  Am I overthinking this?

May be best viewed full screen.
Looks like stock retainer in the pick with dial indicator
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Re: 351W build

Post  Hangman on April 18th 2016, 7:11 pm

............

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