new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

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new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 4th 2016, 9:27 pm

OK, it has been a long time, 2008 or so since I was actively reading this site. I had just started to put together a new A headed motor and I got side tracked. I am now back into what I was doing. I did save the parts so I will list what I have and my decisions point(s) where I am looking for advice:

Parts in hand:
1. SVO block
2. 360 TFS A heads 2.350 stainless valves, 10 bolt. Charlie ported these in 2007. Valve springs are what came on the heads. Probably a little stiff my street use plans.
3. I have a Comp Cam roller cam I bought from CDMBill with 110 lobe sep, 266/272 @ 0.050, 0.420 lobe lift. Lobe profile 4020R/4026R. This was a cam he used to make low
800hp years back on a similar motor he built. The cam is new, he had to buy one with smaller base circles.
4. Comp cam 836 lifters.
5. Stainless 1.8 comp rockers
I have some other stuff like ignition and such but they are not important to my questions.

My plans:
1. I want to build a street car for playing/driving 500 miles/yr. there may be occasional racing, but I want the motor built for reliability.
2. I have a 67 fairlane (3500 lb) with a fresh big in/out toploader (wide ratio) and a 2.87 first gear (a little deeper than stock). 3.50 rears with Detroit locker.
3. I am completely removing the shock towers and going to a mustang II suspension with rack steering. This lets me build proper headers for the heads
4. Manual disk brakes so vacuum is not a concern
5. I plan on running 275 street slicks.

My biggest concerns:
1. I was initially thinking of running a 4.75 crank and going over 600”, but the more I think, the more this doesn’t jive with a street motor. A 4.3 sure makes the rod ratios look
better and would take some side loading off the cylinder walls.
2. The valve train is my biggest concern. How aggressive can I get with the cam and make the valve springs and lifters “live”. It seems through other builds I have seen, 230
seat pressure is about the limit for the street. If I can get 1000 miles out of the valve springs and lifters then I will be happy.
3. I want the bottom end bullet proof. With less stroke and a forged bottom end it should survive several valve train rebuilds. So should I go with the 4.3 or step it up to a
4.5/4.75.

My goals:
1. 800+ hp at ~11:1 compression for street use. (I know this will play hell hooking on the street)
2. I want to reliably be able to rev to 7500 and not worry if a 1-2 shift happens to touch 8000.
3. Use the heads I have, bore the block to 4.600. Even with a 4.3 crank this yields a 572. I want the big bore to un-shroud the valves. The cam, lifter, and rockers, are debatable
as they may not support the RPM I want.

Is something like a magnum Callies crank and Oliver rods be just complete over kill for the 800-1000 hp range, or would it be worth the insurance for a street motor that may not always be at optimal conditions?

Would circle track profiles be better for my cam to provide a little more longevity?

I would assume at 7500 rpm shaft rockers will be more of a requirement?

For mostly street and play, which stroke makes more sense?

Thank you for all input. Like I said, all I am locked to is the heads, the block, the car and a 4 speed. Crank,rods, pistons, cam, intake, carb are all in play at this moment, but I do want to start collecting the rest of the parts sooner than later.
Chris

one final note, I have a 501 4.14 stroker in my 78 F250. 450-500 hp
the Fairlane currently has a 429 in it. I am building a set of D0OE heads for it as we speak.
this is my fifth 385 build so I have some experience on these motors, but this is definitely the highest level build I have done.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  bbf-falcon on June 5th 2016, 1:28 am

That top loader won't hold up with that kind of power w/o work. Fun though Very Happy

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  windsor on June 5th 2016, 5:20 am

Use better lifters, best ones you can afford.  Maybe needle-less bronze bushed and larger diameter, like .904.
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  Lem Evans on June 5th 2016, 12:00 pm

X2 on the better lifter. The Comp 836 were not designed for as much load as the TFS A460 springs have.

The 4020 and 4026 lobes are from the HI-TECH .420" family and are primarily used in oval track applications. They make good power and are relatively easy on parts.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  rmcomprandy on June 5th 2016, 12:38 pm

Personally, I would use a "custom" solid lifter FLAT tappet camshaft in any engine which will see extended street or marine duty between internal maintenance periods.

Others don't mind taking the valve train and intake off for rebuilding or changing roller lifters on a scheduled basis; your choice.
With a flat tappet valve train you insert the inner springs ONCE after camshaft break-in.

Use a good girdle on a stud valve train ... for your application shaft rockers are not necessary.

Reliable 7,500 RPM is a "pipe dream" in a street engine with a 4.75" stroke. A 4.300" stroke will normally make an easy 800 horsepower under 6,500 RPM.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on June 5th 2016, 12:50 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : One of these times I will get the spaces and spelling right...)

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  dfree383 on June 5th 2016, 12:45 pm

I'd build it big with about 10:1 and 1/16 rings

Put a milder hydraulic roller in it and keep the rpm down to 6500 or under
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 5th 2016, 1:47 pm

ok, so the 836 lifters go in the use later pile. the cam I have I am not dead set on either, I just have it from earlier as well and the circle track profiles seem to make sense for street use.

I know the toploader is (very) questionable. but I do want a four speed and I figured I would see if I can get it to live (for a while), or see what it takes to make them last. they are easy to build and I have two of them so what the heck for now.

I really hadn't given a lot of thought to a solid flat. I use these in my 429 and 501 and they have been very reliable. I may have assumed I needed a roller to get above 800.

I guess what I need to set is the upper bounds of rpm that I should expect to make use of on the street. the reason I was thinking of using a bigger cam that needed to spin is i thought it might come in a little easier down low and help with traction. that played into the 4.3 stroke idea as well.





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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  rmcomprandy on June 5th 2016, 3:18 pm

ChrisH wrote:ok,

I really hadn't given a lot of thought to a solid flat. I use these in my 429 and 501 and they have been very reliable. I may have assumed I needed a roller to get above 800.

I guess what I need to set is the upper bounds of rpm that I should expect to make use of on the street. the reason I was thinking of using a bigger cam that needed to spin is i thought it might come in a little easier down low and help with traction. that played into the 4.3 stroke idea as well.


This past February, I built and dyno'ed an "A" headed, 562" ,(4.562" bore x 4.300" stroke), single 1,150 Dominator, mostly street/strip engine which used a flat tappet solid lifter camshaft with over .720" valve lift using 1.73/1 rocker arms.

A racing engine of that size could surely make more but,
this combination produced 843 horsepower at 6,400 RPM with 786 lb/ft of torque at 5,100 RPM.

He is driving the car to work on nice days.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 5th 2016, 3:48 pm

I believe this is pretty much what I am looking for now, power and parts wise.
I may have to give up the in-compatible ideas of a 600+ motor, or a very high revving motor for street use. even with the appropriate maintenance it seems like serious expense and a high budget learning curve. especially after following CDMBills build. if I can get an honest ~800+ hp I'll never notice any more on the street for lack of traction.

I did look up lobe profiles and seen that there are some larger than I expected solid flat profiles out there.

I will be in contact with a few of you professional guys to see what we can do. I suppose I'll stop being stupid/stubborn/ignorant (take your pick) and build something that will work.

thanks guys.

chris

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  dirt_worker on June 5th 2016, 7:56 pm

You need something like this.
Ive had nothing but good luck w it after 2 dyno sessions 1.5 seasons 6 nitrous laps and idk how many street miles.

I specifically went w a cam (roller) that was gonna be easy on part's and did spend $1050 on crower bushing lifters.

The lash is alwasy right on and the springs are the same that I put on back in 2012 and still check out fine.

Its now got a 3.54 gear and tight nitrous convertor and I drive it everywhere including the freeway.

Solid reliable combo that runs on pumpgas and is plenty fast in my 3800+ lb f100.

http://www.429-460.com/t14610-dyno-results-a-headed-557-on-91-octane-pump-gas-dyno-update-page-6
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 5th 2016, 10:31 pm

that would certainly fill the bill.
I read through your build and the first revision of your build is more than plenty.

I have a clearer direction now. it comes down to pulling back somewhat on the race parts and going with an aggressive solid flat cam or a milder street roller cam.
I was just trying to make as full as use of charlie's work on the A heads as possible, but I think that is where I get in trouble as that pushes my valve train over the edge.


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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  dirt_worker on June 5th 2016, 10:52 pm

At the very least contact one of the vendors here for a custom cam consultation and match the cam w your application. I think youre fine w a roller as long as you spec it w somebody who understands you intentions.
I got my last cam from blake cartwright and ran the snot out of it on the street and my latest one from chris straub...both understood my desires and application. Im nit into high maintenance street cars so I asked for something that was gonna be easy on parts. I do think tgat a HIGH quality roller lifter is essential to ones sucess though if much street duty is in you plans.

Whatever you end up w I guarantee its gonna be a BAD mofo on the street! Might as well buy a glide now If you dont already have one Smile
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  68formalGT on June 5th 2016, 10:57 pm

Any pictures of the car?
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 5th 2016, 11:25 pm

for pics I have to find some place to host them first out on the net, then I will.

it hurts my soul to think of putting a glide in this car. I understand why people use them and they work great, but i have teased a couple chevy friends too much about their ford 9" rearends in their chevies. they would eat me alive if I used a glide. I also have a C6 I could use worst case. But i'll just break toploaders until I upgrade. however, even then I will probably upgrade to a better 4 sp.

yes I will definitely use the guys on here. it ain't right to use people for their knowledge on this stuff and then short them on the sales end.

chris

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  dfree383 on June 6th 2016, 7:24 am

ChrisH wrote:for pics I have to find some place to host them first out on the net, then I will.

it hurts my soul to think of putting a glide in this car. I understand why people use them and they work great, but i have teased a couple chevy friends too much about their ford 9" rearends in their chevies. they would eat me alive if I used a glide. I also have a C6 I could use worst case. But i'll just break toploaders until I upgrade. however, even then I will probably upgrade to a better 4 sp.

yes I will definitely use the guys on here. it ain't right to use people for their knowledge on this stuff and then short them on the sales end.

chris

You don't have to use a glide, a C6 can work and might be a better idea for a street ride.
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  gt350hr on June 6th 2016, 11:19 am

I'd be interested in the current motor mounts and headers when yo switch to the Mustang II front end and no shock towers . I am thinking about putting a 521 in my '67 Ranchero.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  windsor on June 6th 2016, 12:39 pm

Another thing to consider is the bigger stroke/more cubes you have then the tamer the camshaft will feel relative to size. More cubes tend to be good on street motors with big cams. I think the 4.5 is a good middle ground. Don't worry about rod ratio, it is what it is.
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  racnrick on June 6th 2016, 3:21 pm

bbf-falcon wrote:That top loader won't hold up with that kind of power w/o work. Fun though Very Happy

Another thing to check into, is a clutch that will hold it. Granted you'll be on the street most of the time so the bite won't be there. But, you stated big input, you can get a single disc for 1 3/8, big input, but they say only good up to 500 hp.
In a twin disc clutch, good to 800 or 1000 hp, they only list for the small input. I called to see why, they all told me, that I can order it special with big input clutch hubs, but the throw out bearing support housing will not fit thru the pressure plate fingers, and I would have to  switch over to their Hyd throw out bearing setup. Which would be a good set up, except, your looking at $850.00 for twin disc kit, then about $650.00 more for Hyd t/o bearing kit, along with a flwheel, all for around $2000.00 total.
I know where your at, wanting a 4 speed, I'm in the same spot on my project, $2000.00 for clutch, another $2000.00 or more for a GOOD top loader, another  $650.00 for a good bellhousing , the C6 route looks pretty tempting , but not as much fun as the 4 speed.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  rmcomprandy on June 6th 2016, 6:47 pm

If it is going to be a "driven" street car, it certainly NEEDS to be Fun To Drive; it can not become a chore.

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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  John Myrick on June 6th 2016, 7:13 pm

Run a manual C6, you get too shift and save your knee
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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  ChrisH on June 6th 2016, 8:03 pm

i have been digging out answers for the clutch. I figured I would be going with a hyd. setup because I want the Z bar out of the way for headers. I am also ditching the manual steering gear and going with a rack for the same reason. this with the shock tower delete (mustang II conversion) gives me maximum room for headers. I want the headers stepped off properly from the flanges (3+ straight inches if possible) to let the raised runners on the TFS heads work.

as far as clutches. I have the McLeod twin on my truck that has a 501 in it. it works really well. I had a clutch rated for 500 in it before but with a 6000 lb truck and doing 4x4 launches for traction it lasted <200 miles after break-in. so even though the motor might be around 500 Hp the weight probably killed that clutch.

right now I have two options; risk a twin disk that is on the ragged edge or use a sintered iron disk. I have driven a 1000hp car with a sintered iron disk and it has "some" slip. better than ceramic but not as good as organic. it is a "usable" option on the street. i will probably risk the dual organic and hedge my bet on traction giving me the margin i need.

i will admit, the cost of the transmission portion was higher than i imagined. i have $1700 in the toploader with new usa made 1, 2, 3, 4 gears, shafts, and synchros. all bearings and small parts are US made as well and the counter gear and reverse gear are original. what i didn't realize was this would be the cheap part of the deal. that as you mention, i would have more in the portion under the bell housing. it looks like that will be around $2500-$3000. and even after $4-5K it may still very well grenade. But i REALLY want a four speed and am willing to R&D this to see if it will work.




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Re: new A headed street motor build for a 67 fairlane

Post  FalconEh on June 6th 2016, 8:17 pm

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