Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 11:58 am

Lem Evans wrote:
dbaker wrote:I am thinking of the lines of a b cut impeller. But that will be after the HP increase

Just beware that there will be a trade off in performance with the smaller cut impellers. A heavy boat with passengers will not plane off as nice with the smaller cut impellers.
A B won't give up anything over an A with the right combination. An impeller knows nothing about the hull design. All it's going to do is allow the engine to work in a given rpm range. It's nothing more than a water brake.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Lem Evans on October 31st 2017, 12:23 pm

" An impeller knows nothing about the hull design" and neither do you or I being that he hasn't talked about his hull type.

The cake and eat it too deal is a blue printed pump with AA impeller with an inducer in front of it. Minimum of a 521" with aluminum heads.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 1:51 pm

Lem Evans wrote:" An impeller knows nothing about the hull design" and neither do you or I being that he hasn't talked about his hull type.

The cake and eat it too deal is a blue printed pump with AA impeller with an inducer in front of it. Minimum of a 521" with aluminum heads.  
You're the one talking about a heavy boat with passengers as if you know something about the hull. I don't care about the hull type. It has nothing to do with answering his questions.
He was asking about turning an A impeller 6500. LOL...now you suggest a AA, and turn it what rpm with an NA 521? Cake and eat it too??? LOL... sure...with a blower motor. Rolling Eyes



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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  dbaker on October 31st 2017, 1:53 pm

Hull is a witchcraft v Hull.18.5 foot. Closed bow, 25 gallon tank in the bow. Berkeley jc pump with diverter valve. Pump is rebuilt by Gary Snow in Kopperl Texas. He is my sounding board on this topic. I helped with the build.

So as of now my most cost effective power addition would be a stroker crank and rods. 4.3 or 4.5 stroke ? Stock pistons and 4.5 would be a 537. D3ve heads at 93 cc should be about a 10.2 CR. Could handle 93 octane.
Ideas and thoughts??????

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 2:45 pm

dbaker wrote:Hull is a witchcraft v Hull.18.5 foot. Closed bow, 25 gallon tank in the bow. Berkeley jc pump with diverter valve. Pump is rebuilt by Gary Snow in Kopperl Texas. He is my sounding board on this topic. I helped with the build.

So as of now my most cost effective power addition would be a stroker crank and rods. 4.3 or 4.5 stroke ? Stock pistons and 4.5 would be a 537. D3ve heads at 93 cc should be about a 10.2 CR.  Could handle 93 octane.      
Ideas and thoughts??????
Garry is a great guy.
Now that we're talking about hulls, how much more speed do you think your hull can handle, realistically? How much more are you looking for? Can't remember but does that hull have full stringers? Do you have a ride plate? Loader grate? Adjustable shoe? Droop? The JC is a one piece bowl so I'm guessing you're pretty much stock where the pump is concerned....not going to respond to a lot of power increase. If you're looking for more speed, there are several things you can do with what you have before tearing into the engine. You could spend a lot on the engine and not gain much at all in the way of speed. JMO...
What kind of exhaust are you running?
Those heads would need a lot of work to even remotely be up to the task of a 537ci stroker, and not at much rpm. I don't see them being capable of 6500 rpm and making any useful power without costing as much or more than a set of alum heads.

I know these aren't answers to questions you were asking, but they might help get you where you want to go in the long run. Just trying to help. I've seen a lot of guys spend a ton on making more power only to have their boats make a lot of noise but go no where.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Lem Evans on October 31st 2017, 2:58 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:" An impeller knows nothing about the hull design" and neither do you or I being that he hasn't talked about his hull type.

The cake and eat it too deal is a blue printed pump with AA impeller with an inducer in front of it. Minimum of a 521" with aluminum heads.  
You're the one talking about a heavy boat with passengers as if you know something about the hull. I don't care about the hull type. It has nothing to do with answering his questions.
He was asking about turning an A impeller 6500. LOL...now you suggest a AA, and turn it what rpm with an NA 521?  Cake and eat it too??? LOL... sure...with a blower motor. Rolling Eyes



I know he said it was 1,500 lbs. which doesn't sound like a competition drag race boat to me.
I did not say he'd turn 6,500 rpm. The facts of the matter are that one does not have to turn an ass load of rpm to run fast with a typical lake/river jetboat. Developing an engine package knowing that it'll never operate above 6,000 is what's it's all about.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 4:07 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:" An impeller knows nothing about the hull design" and neither do you or I being that he hasn't talked about his hull type.

The cake and eat it too deal is a blue printed pump with AA impeller with an inducer in front of it. Minimum of a 521" with aluminum heads.  
You're the one talking about a heavy boat with passengers as if you know something about the hull. I don't care about the hull type. It has nothing to do with answering his questions.
He was asking about turning an A impeller 6500. LOL...now you suggest a AA, and turn it what rpm with an NA 521?  Cake and eat it too??? LOL... sure...with a blower motor. Rolling Eyes



I know he said it was 1,500 lbs. which doesn't sound like a competition drag race boat to me.
I did not say he'd turn 6,500 rpm. The facts of the matter are that one does not have to turn an ass load of rpm to run fast with a typical lake/river jetboat. Developing an engine package knowing that it'll never operate above 6,000 is what's it's all about.
1500# with a big block is not a heavy boat at all. Who said anything about a competition drag boat?
You're all over the map here bud. OP asked about 6500 with an A impeller. He didn't ask for an engine package that will never be above 6000 rpm. He didn't ask about a blue printed pump with a AA impeller and inducer and you really don't sound like you know what you're talking about.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  dbaker on October 31st 2017, 4:36 pm

The boat does have a full stringer. Speed concerns are not over 85 mph. I am a novice at these hulls but I don’t think it would be in my best interest of safety to get into the 80’s

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Lem Evans on October 31st 2017, 4:59 pm

Forgive me for posting in a tread that Scott is in. Scott, I know what I have witnessed and there is nothing that you can type that will make me think I did not see what I saw.

I don't have the inclination or time to argue with you about what you don't know.


Last edited by Lem Evans on October 31st 2017, 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 5:10 pm

dbaker wrote:The boat does have a full stringer. Speed concerns are not over 85 mph. I am a novice at these hulls but I don’t think it would be in my best interest of safety to get into the 80’s
Running 80-85 in most contemporary V bottom jets isn't out of the question at all, but IMO the hull is going to need some hardware upgrades like I mentioned above. It's real hard to just power a jet boat (or any boat) into more mph. Drag on the hull is the problem. Until you can get the boat out of the water, all the power in the world won't overcome the drag. The 12JC has a good intake and a good suction housing. I'd look at upgrading the pump to a JG bowl, some sort of droop snoot or nozzle, you have the PD so you can adjust nozzle angle, a ride plate, loader, and work with what you have now. I'm betting there's at least 10 mph that you can gain with just hardware. The Witchcraft is probably a splash of another hull so I would recommend trying to find out which one, and look at some of the performance mods done to similar hulls. The one thing I don't like is the bow mounted fuel tank. That will fight you all the way and as fuel level changes, so will the attitude of the boat way more than with side tanks. But...it is what it is and what you have to work with. One other thing to mention...above about 600hp, aluminum impellers tend to come apart. I beat one for a year or so and it never did, but I knew I was taking a chance. Just keep that in mind as you start making more power. I think for power, I'd do some fundamental upgrades to the engine you have now...intake, cam, headers, build a good, strong running 460, then work on the boat. Once you get the hull dialed in, then think about making more power.
I've said enough, I'll leave it at that.
Oh, and just for posterity, here's my '80 Bahner tunnel that I built and raced. 467 ci BB Chev, 821 HP, ran 117 in the 1/4.


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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  cobrakid8 on October 31st 2017, 10:17 pm

Lem, when did this board get the premier engine builder in the country Scott Foxwell to start posting on it? I mean dang I didn't much know this place went big time! I mean I have heard his name everywhere when hearing of guys winning races throughout the country! Oh wait, no I haven't, for someone so knowledgeable I would think I would have heard his name before, I mean Right up there's with Kaase, pro-line, BES, Oakley. Scott, fact is you are a know-it-all Askhole, please stick to the Chevy's you seem to love so much, heck I have one in the 4-sale section you can buy and I will again have Lem and Jet Boat Bob build me a real engine! I live in TN and I wouldn't let you touch a matchboxes motor for me because of the way you act. And I promise there are way more than 2 engine builders on this site unlike you said on another post, Kaase has been on here before as has Flip and Carl and Paul Kane that I am pretty sure could say right there with you. I mean when's was your last engine masters win? I don't know a dang thing about these things when it come s to best parts for a combination or what not, but you aren't Gods gift to engine building and please quit acting like you are! Baker, I wish you luck in building what you like and want and sorry to hijack your thread, but give Jet Boat Bob a call and he will steer you in the right direction, on here with motor stuff it seems a measuring contest.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2017, 10:36 pm

cobrakid8 wrote:Lem, when did this board get the premier engine builder in the country Scott Foxwell to start posting on it? I mean dang I didn't much know this place went big time! I mean I have heard his name everywhere when hearing of guys winning races throughout the country! Oh wait, no I haven't, for someone so knowledgeable I would think I would have heard his name before, I mean Right up there's with Kaase, pro-line, BES, Oakley. Scott, fact is you are a know-it-all Askhole, please stick to the Chevy's you seem to love so much, heck I have one in the 4-sale section you can buy and I will again have Lem and Jet Boat Bob build me a real engine! I live in TN and I wouldn't let you touch a matchboxes motor for me because of the way you act. And I promise there are way more than 2 engine builders on this site unlike you said on another post, Kaase has been on here before as has Flip and Carl and Paul Kane that I am pretty sure could say right there with you. I mean when's was your last engine masters win? I don't know a dang thing about these things when it come s to best parts for a combination or what not, but you aren't Gods gift to engine building and please quit acting like you are!  Baker, I wish you luck in building what you like and want and sorry to hijack your thread, but give Jet Boat Bob a call and he will steer you in the right direction, on here with motor stuff it seems a measuring contest.
Sleep

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  rmcomprandy on November 1st 2017, 12:06 am

dbaker wrote:

So as of now my most cost effective power addition would be a stroker crank and rods. 4.3 or 4.5 stroke ? Stock pistons and 4.5 would be a 537. D3ve heads at 93 cc should be about a 10.2 CR.  Could handle 93 octane.      
Ideas and thoughts??????

What is the reasoning you are so "hell bent" on using production cast iron cylinder heads ...?

If you haven't got enough money for a better head then simply drive your boat around with an entirely stock engine until you have that money to purchase decent cylinder heads.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  dbaker on November 1st 2017, 7:35 am

Scott like the boat!! RM I am not stuck on iron heads. The engine will be a three or four year project. So for the sake of just plain HP increase. You have three grand in your pocket which way would you go bottom or top end?

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 1st 2017, 8:10 am

dbaker wrote:Scott like the boat!! RM I am not stuck on iron heads. The engine will be a three or four year project. So for the sake of just plain  HP increase. You have three grand in your pocket which way would you go bottom or top end?
Thanks. Two year project. Boat was upside down in garage for 6 months. Relocated pump, built my own 5*intake, blueprinted the bottom, built all new structure for the pump, machined all new hardware, ride plate, shoes, etc. Sold it to buy cyl head equipment and new owner won points championship with it in Oregon.
I'll be glad to help you in any way I can but not dealing with the egos in this thread any more. PM if you have any questions. Best of luck on your project.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  dfree383 on November 1st 2017, 8:13 am

dbaker wrote:Scott like the boat!! RM I am not stuck on iron heads. The engine will be a three or four year project. So for the sake of just plain  HP increase. You have three grand in your pocket which way would you go bottom or top end?

Do the top now and work on a short block for next season

Imo no reason to waste money on stock heads that are not going to meet your future goal if you have a useable short block now

You just incour additional cost changing impellers or just have to deal with a setup that isn't perfect
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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  rmcomprandy on November 1st 2017, 9:57 am

dbaker wrote:Scott like the boat!! RM I am not stuck on iron heads. The engine will be a three or four year project. So for the sake of just plain  HP increase. You have three grand in your pocket which way would you go bottom or top end?

I would wait till I got enough money in my pocket to do both.

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  Lem Evans on November 1st 2017, 10:13 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
dbaker wrote:Scott like the boat!! RM I am not stuck on iron heads. The engine will be a three or four year project. So for the sake of just plain  HP increase. You have three grand in your pocket which way would you go bottom or top end?

I would wait till I got enough money in my pocket to do both.

Best advice in this thread ^^^^^

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Re: Cylinder Head option 1 or option 2 or save for 3?

Post  dbaker on November 1st 2017, 10:18 am

Thanks

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