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Automated traction control devices & the ADRL.....

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Post  DILLIGASDAVE August 23rd 2009, 6:10 am

Since automated traction control devices are allowed in the ADRL, some don't mind admitting the "dirty little secrete" that they use them. Shocked Evil or Very Mad

About half way down the page........

http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11209&Itemid=43



http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11028&Itemid=6


Allowing these devices is wrong.....it's just wrong.
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Post  Doug Rahn August 23rd 2009, 7:37 am

They might as well make it legal to level the playing field. So easy to hide it and you know guys are using them, not just in NHRA, but NASCAR and all the rest as well.


Featured article by Warren Johnson.
Because I've been known to climb out on a limb sometimes, I might as well climb out to the end of the branch with this topic.

Traction control is a term that strikes fear in the hearts of some members of the motorsports community. It's become commonplace in production vehicles, yet it's banned by many racing organizations.

The safety benefits on the street are obvious. By maintaining grip on slippery surfaces, the driver can avoid potential accidents. As with many GM vehicles, the production version of my Pontiac Grand Am employs electronic controls to maintain traction. The same sensors that provide input for the anti-lock brake system also detect wheel spin under acceleration.

The power train control module monitors traction by comparing the speeds of the driven and un-driven wheels. If wheel spin is present, the system retards ignition timing to reduce power and up - shifts the transmission to reduce torque multiplication. Some production systems also intervene by applying brake pressure to the spinning wheel.

The same principles of traction control apply in racing, albeit at a more sophisticated level. Engine speeds are higher and response times are faster on the track, but the systems are conceptually similar.

Efforts to ban it in racing series' such as Formula 1 have proven futile , because the codes can be embedded so deeply in the engine control software that they are virtually undetectable. The F-1 authorities simply threw in the towel and legalized it. Rumors of clandestine systems with subminiature components hidden inside wires abound in NASCAR, SCCA, NHRA, and other forms of racing that currently prohibit traction control.

One of the problems with policing it is that advanced systems do not require external wheel speed sensors. If the ECM (Electronic Control Module) senses an increase in the rate of engine acceleration that is greater than a preset value, the inference is that the tires are spinning due to a loss of traction. The system then responds by reducing engine output.

Though the NHRA Rulebook prohibits the use of traction control, all of the components of a traction control system are legal. If you were to marry a digital ignition system with a G-meter and a ground speed sensor to monitor acceleration, you would have the rudiments of a traction control system. Of course, I am certain that no one in the sport would actually employ such a device . Right ?

The obvious point is that none of these devices actually control traction. Traction is only determined by the coefficient of friction between the tires and the track surface. The available grip depends on ambient conditions. The track surface, and the composition and construction of the tires, cannot be affected by the engine, car or driver. Traction control should really be known as “torque control” because that is what is actually regulated.

The goal in drag racing is to apply as much engine torque as possible to the track surface to maximize acceleration up to the point when spin occurs. When a traction-control system is activated, the engine inevitably produces less than its maximum power. Therefore, the belief that traction control will make a car faster is simply wrong. In fact, traction control (or torque control) cannot make a car run quicker than it would on a perfect run. What it can do, however, is salvage a marginal run that might otherwise be aborted due to excessive wheel spin or tire shake.

The potential benefit of traction control in Pro Stock, a category in which the cars have virtually no down force, is to make racing safer. Traction control is not going to make a car quicker, but it will make it more consistent and controllable on a less-than-perfect track surface.

A legal traction control system would be simply another tuning device, just like a carburetor or a clutch. It would be up to the crew chief to program how much variation from the optimum wheel speed the system will tolerate before reducing engine power. If the tuner errs on the side of caution, he will have cut engine power needlessly. I f he is too aggressive, he will overpower the track, just as he would without traction control.

A legal traction control system would be another item in the toolbox that racers could use to adjust the car to track conditions. It 's not a magical, all-purpose solution to setting up a race car. I t requires finesse and intelligence to use it to its full potential.

In my view, bans on traction control in racing are much like Prohibition was in the early 1900's. A noble experiment perhaps, but ultimately, unenforceable. Unless our engine technology reverts to bare bones magneto ignition systems with no external wiring, there will always be the potential to employ illegal traction control. Because the introduction of traction control would improve consistency, safety and the quality of the show, why not embrace the technology that is standard equipment on 90 percent of the late model vehicles in the spectator parking lots?

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Post  Nevs August 23rd 2009, 7:44 am

While Warren Johnson isn't a Ford guy, that doesn't mean he's stupid. All valid points and worth considering.
I know it was being used by some individuals in the NMRA when we raced over there. I'm sure that hasn't changed.
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Post  bbf-falcon August 23rd 2009, 10:39 am

Well, hears my opinion on the subject. They have taken the DRIVER out of the equasion anyway so who gives a chit what you stick on it, because the driver is just riding along anyway Evil or Very Mad . I know I'm back in the 70's yet , and I will have to put a delay box in Tweety but I sure as hell don't want to. But, w/that said I want to be competititive too.

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Post  BOSS 429 August 23rd 2009, 11:03 am

bbf-falcon wrote:Well, hears my opinion on the subject. They have taken the DRIVER out of the equasion anyway so who gives a chit what you stick on it, because the driver is just riding along anyway Evil or Very Mad . I know I'm back in the 70's yet , and I will have to put a delay box in Tweety but I sure as hell don't want to. But, w/that said I want to be competititive too.
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you have to install a box? why?
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Post  Curt August 23rd 2009, 11:44 am

For heads up racing, traction controll may be a no-brainer. For bracket racing, it is a different animal. When ET's can be dialed into the box, it takes everything except the tree out of the equation. If it is legalized in bracket racing, then we should just have practice tree eliminations. Basketball
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Post  342g August 23rd 2009, 1:22 pm

They must be making their way to bracket racing, we had tech check every car last week, but they said they had no idea what they were looking for.
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Post  bbf-falcon August 23rd 2009, 1:30 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
bbf-falcon wrote:Well, hears my opinion on the subject. They have taken the DRIVER out of the equasion anyway so who gives a chit what you stick on it, because the driver is just riding along anyway Evil or Very Mad . I know I'm back in the 70's yet , and I will have to put a delay box in Tweety but I sure as hell don't want to. But, w/that said I want to be competititive too.
+


you have to install a box? why?
Because, racing w/a car under 10.00 et. at most tracks anymore has to run B1. And running bracket 1 w/o box, would be like bringing a sling shot to a gun fight. Unless you are Frank Merkle Smile

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Post  342g August 23rd 2009, 1:37 pm

Rick, I think you can run 9.80 in no box at most tracks now.
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Post  ThndrChkn August 23rd 2009, 2:27 pm

bbf-falcon wrote:Well, hears my opinion on the subject. They have taken the DRIVER out of the equasion anyway so who gives a chit what you stick on it, because the driver is just riding along anyway Evil or Very Mad . I know I'm back in the 70's yet , and I will have to put a delay box in Tweety but I sure as hell don't want to. But, w/that said I want to be competititive too.

I agree Rick... I have a delay box in the truck, but that's as high tech as I get...








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Post  David Willingham August 23rd 2009, 5:11 pm

I'm all for it. Anything that can keep my tires planted while I am throwing 1200hp+ to them is a good thing.
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Post  DILLIGASDAVE August 23rd 2009, 7:45 pm

"Evening the playing field" by doing more of the driver's job with a traction box in these faster "pro" classes is a bad idea. If as a driver someone doesn't have the required skills to actually "drive" (know when to stay in it, pedal it, or lift) one of theses high powered deals, that driver has no business in the car in the first place. What happens if the box fails on a butt-pucker pass and suddenly the "just along for the ride" driver is in over his head? Evil or Very Mad

If traction control becomes universally accepted in the faster classes you may as well take the driver completely out of the picture and turn them into slot cars. Evil or Very Mad
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Post  Treeyasoon August 23rd 2009, 8:39 pm

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:"Evening the playing field" by doing more of the driver's job with a traction box in these faster "pro" classes is a bad idea. If as a driver someone doesn't have the required skills to actually "drive" (know when to stay in it, pedal it, or lift) one of theses high powered deals, that driver has no business in the car in the first place. What happens if the box fails on a butt-pucker pass and suddenly the "just along for the ride" driver is in over his head? Evil or Very Mad

If traction control becomes universally accepted in the faster classes you may as well take the driver completely out of the picture and turn them into slot cars. Evil or Very Mad
I couldn't agree more.
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Post  David Willingham August 23rd 2009, 11:22 pm

Point taken Dave, I do agree on the fast stuff. I personally don't care for ADRL because I have nothing I can race in that series. I like ORSCA, but it seems to be fading away because of the ADRL anything-goes stuff. Their use of screw blowers has really hurt my Pro-mod blower biz as a roots style deal just can't keep up. Now if they were to pass a rule that they had to run the same OD as a roots, then we could keep up. Oh well, it's all good. Cool
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Post  DILLIGASDAVE August 24th 2009, 7:01 am

David Willingham wrote:Their use of screw blowers has really hurt my Pro-mod blower biz as a roots style deal just can't keep up.

Hey David have you thought about approaching some of the 10.5 guys with a big roots setup? One of the local transmission guys here went with a "bigger than normal" roots setup from Mooneyham (I think it was from them). Mooneyham's reasoning was that the bigger blower will be a little "lazier" initially giving a 10.5 tire car a better chance of hooking, then coming on stronger down track with a big top end charge.
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Post  dfree383 August 24th 2009, 9:39 am

I'd rather watch cars with no electronics at all, how's it racing if a computer is doing all the work?? Might as well be playing a video game........
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Post  David Willingham August 24th 2009, 10:25 am

Well, I'm not the sales guy, Chuck Ford is. I think most of the 10.5 guys don't want to pay for a killer roots setup, especially if they can run the screw. I understand the the old school approach to no electronics, but it nice to adjust stuff with a PC and look at the data from the run. Allows you to see what's happening and make adjustments, go faster, and be more competitive.
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Post  bbf-falcon August 24th 2009, 1:02 pm

dfree383 wrote:I'd rather watch cars with no electronics at all, how's it racing if a computer is doing all the work?? Might as well be playing a video game........
I totally agree Rolling Eyes

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Post  Doug Rahn August 24th 2009, 6:03 pm

I don't agree with it either, but the reason I say make it legal to level the playing field is, the honest people won't stand a chance if they don't. It's so easy to hide something no bigger than a box of matches. And now they have wireless units, the driver could carry it in his pocket and no one would be the wiser . How can an honest person compete with that.
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Post  hotrodmerc August 24th 2009, 6:15 pm

While I do not use traction control I have a friend that is partnered with a major player in the traction control world. It's all about making a product that sells and works. Let me tell you they DO work. I guess I'm just a little old school.
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