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Charlie Evans Project

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Post  Paul Kane January 1st 2012, 12:54 pm

c.evans wrote:...we are at a solid and repeatable 1194 Hp and 930 Tq and the engine is 598 CID. So, if we can get two more horsepower and we'll be at 2 Hp/CID. There's a couple of things that we're going to try tomorrow. What's interesting is that we are using a cast TFS A-460 tunnel ram, not a custom sheet metal tunnel ram. Very Happy

Uncle Charlie
Wowzers, that's fanstastic. Very Happy
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Post  rmcomprandy January 1st 2012, 1:48 pm

c.evans wrote:Guy's

There's a couple of things that we're going to try tomorrow. What's interesting is that we are using a cast TFS A-460 tunnel ram, not a custom sheet metal tunnel ram.

Uncle Charlie

Could there be a better advertisement for your intake adapter plates and the power that can be made...?

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Post  c.evans January 1st 2012, 3:15 pm

Well guys,

I have good news and bad news to report. First off for the good news. Some of us old dogs went out this morning to the Windy Hollow Country Restaurant for brunch and had country ham and black eyed peas. It's an old school tradition, but black eyed peas on New Years Day is supposed to bring you good luck. And I need some Exclamation

Now for the bad news. Yesterday afternoon, when we got back to dynoing my engine,,,,the mandrel that drives the oil pump and vacuum pump pullies broke off, during a warm-up pull. It was at the top end of the pull, (about 6500 rpm) so Phillip thought it would be a good idea to cut open the oil filter, which he and Lem did. Unfortunately, we have some babbit material in there, they are tiny flakes, but the engine is wounded and is coming back apart.

Furthermore, previously Phillip had expressed his concern about the weakness of the design, and had encouraged me to switch to the Peterson mandrel like what he runs. It is my fault that I ignored his advice and continued to use the one I had. This mandrel was an alum. piece with the 1" stub and the 1/8" keyway and is like one I have been using on Kristina's A-headed engine, and has done okay for the past couple of years on it. Anyway, it broke through in the corner of the counterbore on the back side and more of less just ripped the center out of it. When Todd and I walked in the dyno cell afterwards, the mandrel and pullies where still spinning like a top on the floor.

My sincere apology to Phillip for not following his advice and causing all this additonal work at his busiest time. I suspect that we'll be able to polish the crank and put a new set of bearings in it and we'll be okay.

Randy, no sir, this engine does not have the single pass cooling. The current A-headed engine in Krisse's dragster does.

Rich, I do not have the dyno sheets in front of me, they are out at the shop. Just going by memory, we changed two things at the same time. The oil and the shear plates. Together they gave us just over 20 hp if my memory is correct.

Charlie Evans

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Post  schmitty January 1st 2012, 3:17 pm

No mention was made that I could find on what was on top of the T/R. Did you do this with a single carb or dual dommies? Cool
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Post  c.evans January 1st 2012, 3:21 pm

schmitty wrote:No mention was made that I could find on what was on top of the T/R. Did you do this with a single carb or dual dommies? Cool

Rob,

2 X 4 Phillip Oakley design Quick Fuel carbs on Q-16.

Uncle Charlie

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Post  schmitty January 1st 2012, 3:23 pm

Sorry to hear this Charlie. pale It can be made to go again though. Just like when mine was out there, it is just one of those things that happens, and we move on with a good attitude and fix it again.


There is a lesson here for anyone who is building an engine, or has one built. Things go wrong and those things can be fixed. Always make sure you have a some budget left in case something does happen, because it very well can. Cool
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Post  schmitty January 1st 2012, 3:25 pm

c.evans wrote:
schmitty wrote:No mention was made that I could find on what was on top of the T/R. Did you do this with a single carb or dual dommies? Cool

Rob,

2 X 4 Phillip Oakley design Quick Fuel carbs on Q-16.

Uncle Charlie

Where did the C/R come out on this?
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Post  Doug Rahn January 1st 2012, 3:42 pm

I'm sorry Sad to hear about the trouble Charlie, but I know ya'll get it worked out okay.
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Post  Kens429 January 1st 2012, 3:58 pm

Charlie, congratulations on the great preliminary numbers. I'm sorry to hear about the setback. Maybe things won't be that bad when you pull the pan off, since you used the coated Callico bearings if my memory serves me correctly.

I was also wondering if you were using merge collectors on the headers. Talking to Alan, who is building my headers for the 533, said that he found quite a bit of power on his combo with his adjustable merge collectors. Even the shape of the bellmouth outlet of the collectors had an effect on power. I could ask him if he has anything that will fit your headers when I bring mine down, if you are interested.

Ken
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Post  c.evans January 1st 2012, 4:16 pm

Ken,

The headers were a brand new set of Fab Shop headers for the Pro-Filer 205 heads, with a set of merge collectors. I got them a couple/three months before Tim unfortunately passed away.

Guys, thanks for the encouraging words. I know everything will work out okay, no problem. IMO the engine is just wounded, not hurt.

Years and years ago, I had a new build, (a 455 Buick) on the dyno and we kicked a rod out the block and the oil pan, and I said screw it, it's a smoking hot mess,,,,,let's all go to lunch at Moon Light Bar-B-Que and deal with it after we'd had a few beers. My buddy Jim Netherland couldn't believe how laid back I was about it.

Charlie

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Post  KY JELLY January 1st 2012, 4:38 pm

Just curios about the mandrel did it bolt to the dampener or have a long bolt that threads into the crankshaft?

I have always been leery of the long crank bolt design.
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Post  512Fairlane January 1st 2012, 4:40 pm

Sorry for the set back guys. These are what we call "character building" experiences. Thanks for sharing your results.
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Post  bbf-falcon January 1st 2012, 5:12 pm

One other way to look at it is, better on the dyno than in the stick at the track. Sorry for the trouble Charlie Crying or Very sad

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Post  c.evans January 1st 2012, 5:43 pm

KY,

1. The current 598 engine that is in Kristina's car has a long snout Performance Crankshaft and the correct ATI dampner for the long snout BB Ford. This engine has a distributor, but does not have a crank trigger. I used a Stefs dry sump oil pan and the Stefs BB Ford mandrel which bolts to the dampner and also has a long 5/8" bolt going through everything, that you are leery off.

2. This new 598 engine has a Sonny Bryant short snout crankshaft and the correct ATI dampner for it, which is the small block style hub with the big block diameter dampner. This engine has a crank trigger, so when the MSD crank trigger is sandwiched between the dampner and the Stefs mandrel, it creates enough space in there to use two bolts. By design, there is a counterbore on the back side of the Stefs mandrel . One short bolt holds the dampner on the crank with the 3/16" keyway deal. Then I put another short 5/8" bolt in there so that they were head to head, but not touching. The second bolt held the pulley stack together, and then three 3/8" bolts held that on to the ATI dampner. Where is broke is at the corner of that counterbore in the mandrel. I guess the alum. is just too thin there. I'll change to the Peterson Fluid Systems spline drive stuff.

Charlie

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Post  Doug Rahn January 1st 2012, 6:17 pm

You can't go wrong with the Peterson Spline Drive Wink . Mine has 16 pulls on the dyno, 59 passes down the track, and I have no idea how many times pulling it over with a 24" pull handle to run the valves, with zero problems.
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Post  BOSS 429 January 1st 2012, 6:38 pm

[quote="Doug Rahn"]You can't go wrong with the Peterson Spline Drive Wink . Mine has 16 pulls on the dyno, 59 passes down the track, and I have no idea how many times pulling it over with a 24" pull handle to run the valves, with zero problems.[/quote



YES, THE ONES THAT SHOW UP with the bolt thru drive leave with a peterson bolt on type
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Post  richter69 January 1st 2012, 6:49 pm

KY JELLY wrote:Just curios about the mandrel did it bolt to the dampener or have a long bolt that threads into the crankshaft?

I have always been leery of the long crank bolt design.


Not sure I have any pics of mine, its a bolt through..............but it aint installed the way it came out of the box. The end of the mandrel has been step machined to have surface contact with the end of the crank as well as the balancer hub. The end of the mandrel also has a key that fits in the slot for the crank keyway in the balancer hub, all the gilmer belt drive gears and v belt pulley for the vac pump are as such as when the through bolt is torqued everything is compressed and applys pressure on the mandrel where it makes contact with the crank and the balancer hub................hard to explain but it does not rely on surface contact or the keyways...but rather both. I think I have a few hundred passes on this setup, I check the crankbolt torque from time to time and its always right were i left it.

More than one way to skin a cat, just make sure the knife is sharp and it will work fine.............. Very Happy
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Post  Lem Evans January 1st 2012, 7:42 pm

Fabio, what you have is stouter than the parts that failed on Charlie's deal yesterday. I prefer a set up that has two bolts for the job...one to clamp the damper & another [7/16" or 1/2"] to compress the drive pullies and have the 3 or 4 bolts at the face of the damper to see the rotating load.

I have seen the long azz 5/8" bolts fail driving a 4 stage dry sump pump...I know you have the 1 stage deal so, it's not having that much load.......just feed it a new bolt every time it's down and things will be great.


Last edited by Lem Evans on January 1st 2012, 11:08 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  richter69 January 1st 2012, 7:46 pm

I did replace the bolt that last go round, i added a vac pump and had to make it a tad longer, the thread depth into the crank is also as deep as she'll go, without bottoming out.
Its also a grade 8.
Just a belt driven single stage pump, belt driven fuel pump, and a moroso 3 vane vac pump.

I will be adding one of them fancy new balancers you sell one day and use this stuff on the "spare" bullet.

Charlie Evans Project - Page 5 TV10-17-09006-2
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Post  Lem Evans January 1st 2012, 9:29 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:what it make with the R M plates?

21HP less. It could have been more but due to the oil pump drive thing we will never know. Philip was in the process of undoing the 'queer' carb tuneup that the RM deal wanted when things hit the fan.

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Post  c.evans January 1st 2012, 10:27 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Fabio, what you have is stouter than the parts that failed on Charlie's deal yesterday. I prefer a set up that has two bolts for the job...one to clamp the damper & another [7/16" or 1/2"] to compress the drive pullies and have the 3 or 4 bolts at the face of the damper to see the rotating load.

I have seen the long azz 9/16" bolts fail driving a 4 stage dry sump pump...I know you have the 1 stage deal so, it's not having that much load.......just feed it a new bolt every time it's down and things will be great.

"The long azz 9/16" bolts",,, are actually 5/8" SAE fine thread bolts Lem.

Charlie

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Post  Lem Evans January 1st 2012, 10:32 pm

I stand corrected.......5/8" they are.

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Post  Lem Evans January 1st 2012, 10:49 pm

richter69 wrote:I did replace the bolt that last go round, i added a vac pump and had to make it a tad longer, the thread depth into the crank is also as deep as she'll go, without bottoming out.
Its also a grade 8.
Just a belt driven single stage pump, belt driven fuel pump, and a moroso 3 vane vac pump.

I will be adding one of them fancy new balancers you sell one day and use this stuff on the "spare" bullet.

Charlie Evans Project - Page 5 TV10-17-09006-2


Mike's deal......


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Post  Oakley Motorsports January 1st 2012, 11:23 pm

Guys heres my take on the hp and the breakage. The engine was making in the 1165 range and was not responding well to my tune-up changes(we stated at 1126). After looking at the fuel curve and also the power curve i felt we had several holes and thought we should make the spacer change. I also thought this would be a good time to put the royal purple oil in the engine. So we changed spacers and oil and made a couple pulls the engine was about 1181 to 1183 if i remember correctly. The engine got richer by almost .5. It was also going rich on the higher rpm on the 1 through 4 side. I then made a couple high speed moves and we were up to the 1194. So at this time who is to say what the spacers are worth but it is some and still maybe more. The engine manners were totally different and the hp load on the dyno had to be changed.

At this time the engine is peaking about 7200 and peak torque about 6300 if i remeber correctly. I need to get the peak power raised up to 76 or 7700 and i think we can get 1210 or so. i moved cam 3 times forward and backward with no improvement over what i had. The engine does respond to everymove I make good or bad. That part i do like.

As far as the drive mandrel I did not like the one that Charlie wanted to use and expressed that to Charlie as he said. Sometimes we all make decisions we wish we could change and i am sure this is one. To his defense he had used one without any problem. I prefer the peterson drive or the Star drive. I have had a drive break apart myself before and it is not a good experience.

I appreciate his concerns about how i felt yesterday i didnt know if i wanted to puke or knock a hole in the wall. I know that he is as sick as I am and we will get it taken care of.

Last Charlie and Lawyer motorsports will have a kick ass engine and i hope they are able to bust some ass with it!!

ps Charlie those Oakley Motorsport Valve covers look Kick ass. Post some pictures!!

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Post  Oakley Motorsports January 1st 2012, 11:25 pm

double post Very Happy

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