new morel lifters no oil to top?

Lem Evans wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

nitro717 wrote:I put new morel lifter in to replace the old comps and now have no oil up top. Using a drill to prime it havent started it yet, did notive to oil hole are 90degrees off from the comps. Get about 40 lbs of pressure with the drill.

Morel intentionally manufactures their lifters with a lifter body diameter that is on the high side (those which are sold under the Morel brand name). They do this so that the performance engine builder can size his lifter bore clearances exactly where he wants them, just like sizing the pin end of a con rod, for example. It's intended as high-end application stuff. If you don't set the lifter bore clearance, you may not get adequate top end oiling.

New blocks will need to have the lifter bores sized, and used blocks often need to be sized...or you can lightly notch the lifters instead of honing the lifter bores. (Another nice thing is if a used block's lifter bores are worn a thou or so, the Morels can "compensate" for that in some builds.) I think it's great that we have a lifter body with alkl of this in mind, and from a high quality manufacturer.

And Morel makes some very high quality lifters. People who use them and companies that offer them under their own brand name include: Force, Roush/Yates, Hendrick's, RCR...Isky, Crower, Merc, Lunati, and more.

Paul

Paul, the difference between Ford's high to low spec. for lifter dia. is but .0005". I doubt that much of the issue here is high vs. low.....above the high side would be another issue.

Comp's 836-16 lifter is ~ at the low side. In 1986 I was having an issue with pushrod erosion....I put a lot more oil to the upper gallery [I had a Boss 9 block]....no relief. I had to use the hillbilly grind or file thing to resolve it. My contact at Comp was made aware of the issue and the set of lifters we got the next year had the feed hole rotated in the lifter 90* closer to the gallery......issue resolved. They FIXED it.

Fastforward: 7-8 years ago to Doug Rahn's A460 engine. Doug supplied a nice set of Crower Hippo lifters...guess what...little to no oil to the rockers...I was and still am pissed More hillbilly crap...this time on an expensive lifters
Fastforward II: ~ 2 years ago I was involved in a very nice A460 build.....the owner requested .904" Crower lifters. Upon arrival, the inspection revealed that Crower had machined this really coool micro groove between the oil band/waist of the lifter.....they FIXED it

Before someone thinks I'm trying to burn a cross in Morel's yard......we are a stocking dealer for said lifter & I may have been the guy that sold the ones that Fabio just had to adjust....they just need to FIX it.

Paul Kane wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

nitro717 wrote:I put new morel lifter in to replace the old comps and now have no oil up top. Using a drill to prime it havent started it yet, did notive to oil hole are 90degrees off from the comps. Get about 40 lbs of pressure with the drill.

Morel intentionally manufactures their lifters with a lifter body diameter that is on the high side (those which are sold under the Morel brand name). They do this so that the performance engine builder can size his lifter bore clearances exactly where he wants them, just like sizing the pin end of a con rod, for example. It's intended as high-end application stuff. If you don't set the lifter bore clearance, you may not get adequate top end oiling.

New blocks will need to have the lifter bores sized, and used blocks often need to be sized...or you can lightly notch the lifters instead of honing the lifter bores. (Another nice thing is if a used block's lifter bores are worn a thou or so, the Morels can "compensate" for that in some builds.) I think it's great that we have a lifter body with alkl of this in mind, and from a high quality manufacturer.

And Morel makes some very high quality lifters. People who use them and companies that offer them under their own brand name include: Force, Roush/Yates, Hendrick's, RCR...Isky, Crower, Merc, Lunati, and more.

Paul

Paul, the difference between Ford's high to low spec. for lifter dia. is but .0005". I doubt that much of the issue here is high vs. low.....above the high side would be another issue.

Comp's 836-16 lifter is ~ at the low side. In 1986 I was having an issue with pushrod erosion....I put a lot more oil to the upper gallery [I had a Boss 9 block]....no relief. I had to use the hillbilly grind or file thing to resolve it. My contact at Comp was made aware of the issue and the set of lifters we got the next year had the feed hole rotated in the lifter 90* closer to the gallery......issue resolved. They FIXED it.

Fastforward: 7-8 years ago to Doug Rahn's A460 engine. Doug supplied a nice set of Crower Hippo lifters...guess what...little to no oil to the rockers...I was and still am pissed More hillbilly crap...this time on an expensive lifters
Fastforward II: ~ 2 years ago I was involved in a very nice A460 build.....the owner requested .904" Crower lifters. Upon arrival, the inspection revealed that Crower had machined this really coool micro groove between the oil band/waist of the lifter.....they FIXED it

Before someone thinks I'm trying to burn a cross in Morel's yard......we are a stocking dealer for said lifter & I may have been the guy that sold the ones that Fabio just had to adjust....they just need to FIX it.

Yep, Morel machines their brand name lifter bodies higher than other brands by about 0.0005", but exactly how much and relative to OEM spec I don't know off the top of my head. Yes, the Comps have a smaller diameter llifter body which allows more oil to the feed holes, and they also have two oil holes 90-degrees to the lifter gallery while the Morel's have one oil feed hole 180-degrees to the lifter gallery. Damn straight they're going to need different setups. Morel recommends a 0.0015" clearance for their roller lifters; obviously the engine builder can fine tune from there. The Comps are definitely more plug-n-play for the majority of builds....such as is an SCJ head, while the Morels should be approached more like a "you finish it" E460 head (that's an extreme comparo but it paints the picture).

The world of custom engine building includes a myriad of parts that might not fit or clear a neighboring component. Having in the BBF arsenal a solid roller lifter option that requires custom fitment more often than the other options is no different than, say, an end user shocked to learn that his Kaase pump does not clear his main stud girdle or oil pan without grinding and/or clearancing. Maybe for some people the component is in need of being "fixed," to other people it simply needs to be "set up."

Paul

Lem Evans wrote:

Aint no way I'd run a Morel, Comp or any other roller lifter at .0015" clearance in a racing engine. I don't consider grinding a precision machined part like a roller lifter to be "set up".....they just need do what Crower did and fix it with the mini-groove. I fully understand making things fit...it's just part of an engine build but, roller lifters are not in the same league with oil pans , guide plates, etc. that suffer the rattail or bench grinder.

richter69 wrote:I had a fresh set of Morels put in when I did the past build, I didnt start having probles until anout 1/2 way into the 2nd season (ford thunder race in tn) after that race I found the exh tip on #5 burnt up. upping the oil press made no diff, in fact nkne of the exh were oiling worth a damn. I know the lifterbore clearance didnt get smaller. My theory is the proximity hole for the oiling is on the cam side of lifter and the more extreme angle of the valve placement side loads the lifter to the bore....... where oil needs to be getting to the hole. Maybe as time went by the lifter and bore wall wear took out all the little imperfections that would allow oil to pass to the hole.

Maybe the green oil was a crutch to the little oil it did get, for the tn race it had vr1 in it, all I know is it damn sure didnt run up there like it did here, vr1 and chewing up p rod tips onnthe exh side.

bottom line is a guy needs to check stuff over and not assume its all working likie its suppossed to.

Curt wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:

Aint no way I'd run a Morel, Comp or any other roller lifter at .0015" clearance in a racing engine. I don't consider grinding a precision machined part like a roller lifter to be "set up".....they just need do what Crower did and fix it with the mini-groove. I fully understand making things fit...it's just part of an engine build but, roller lifters are not in the same league with oil pans , guide plates, etc. that suffer the rattail or bench grinder.

Well said Lem!

I would have given you an AMEN, but that might not have been taken seriously.

Lem Evans wrote:

Well, I might consider an exception to the .0015" IF a guy had the DCL coated Jesel stuff like you high rollers run

Bret Powell wrote:I've had to groove them in Fords and Chevies. Part of the job, and also why I do not seal the intake down until I have oil at rockers. This is usually the biggest problem when running bushings and tight clearances.

Bret

Dave De wrote:This post came a bit late for me as i put my A460 block 580 together a few months ago. The Morels were from my old D9TE block build and it oiled adiquately.
The first start today on the new build and I am barely getting oil thru the rockers but they are all dribbling out a small amount. I'm not sure if much oil will make it to the roller tip.

How much oil is enough?
And if i groove them its going to be done on a Bridge Port and all will be close to each other for the groove. Some have said the depth is .0015 but they look more like .015?

Details
SCJ heads, TI retainers, Kaase pump, block restrictors are .060, break-in oil is 15w-40 with plans to go to 20-50 (but maybe not). Oil pressure is 70psi hot at 1500 rpm but the oil is only 10 minutes old.
The car will be driven on the street for about 200 miles per year and then 40 runs down the track.


Thanks in advance
Dave

rmcomprandy wrote:

David Cole wrote:I have those lifters in my A460 block. Oiling is correct. No need to notch or do anything to the lifters.
But....my block was honed to the correct clearance.

YES ... those lifters require a downward motion of the lifter body to force oil from the groove to the hole via lifter bore clearance. You won't see much oil up top regardless of the oil pressure unless the engine is running.

EDIT; According to them, these lifters were designed to run with NO other type oil restriction to the upper end. If you have an "A" type block with lifter bore oil restriction, it needs to be removed or the lifter needs modification.

Lem Evans wrote:

Dave De wrote:This post came a bit late for me as i put my A460 block 580 together a few months ago. The Morels were from my old D9TE block build and it oiled adiquately.
The first start today on the new build and I am barely getting oil thru the rockers but they are all dribbling out a small amount. I'm not sure if much oil will make it to the roller tip.

How much oil is enough?
And if i groove them its going to be done on a Bridge Port and all will be close to each other for the groove. Some have said the depth is .0015 but they look more like .015?

Details
SCJ heads, TI retainers, Kaase pump, block restrictors are .060, break-in oil is 15w-40 with plans to go to 20-50 (but maybe not). Oil pressure is 70psi hot at 1500 rpm but the oil is only 10 minutes old.
The car will be driven on the street for about 200 miles per year and then 40 runs down the track.


Thanks in advance
Dave

Dave, I notice you said 'restrictors'.....so you are feeding 1/16" from the front and back?

Lem Evans wrote:10-4...so that aint an issue.

If you gotta mill I'd knock a flat .0015 off the deal and rerun the deal.

One pair.

Dave De wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:10-4...so that aint an issue.

If you gotta mill I'd knock a flat .0015 off the deal and rerun the deal.

One pair.

A flat is better than a groove? I can do either.

How much oil do I need up top anyway?

cool40 wrote:a file works too.