Cam sensor for 460

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Cam sensor for 460

Post  CDMBill on August 4th 2011, 1:47 am

I'm looking to convert my EFI'd 582" BBF from an MS 2 based batch fire set up to an MS3x sequential EMS and the hold up seems to be the lack of a readily available cam sensor?

I've read a number of other posts in other places, but fabricating sleeves for a 3.8L unit is beyond my ability. Has anyone here solved this issue?

Is there a cam sensor for other Ford's maybe from Australia for 351C-429? I'm reaching but the only alternative I've found is to sacrifice an MSD distributor. I'm running TFS A-460 heads and a tunnel ram so space is at a premium.

Thoughts?

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  s.hembree on August 4th 2011, 7:56 am

Are there any available for a 351W? The dizzy's are interchangeable with a gear swap.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  CDMBill on August 4th 2011, 12:25 pm

There are some aftermarket units for the 351W, not the 351C which is identical to the 429-460.

So I am clear, I can put the gear from one of my old 429-460 distributors on a 351W cam sensor unit and I'm good to go?

Is there a factory cam sensor for the 351W? I have found them for the 5.0 Explorer motors, but 351 applications

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  69F100 on August 4th 2011, 5:59 pm

the 315w has a 5/16'' hex in it like the 351c,429-460 does and yes just swap the gears the 5.0 will not have it has a 1/4''hex for the oil pump.
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351 = 302 pad to pad length

Post  CDMBill on August 4th 2011, 9:46 pm

I have forgotten what little I knew about SBFs. Is a 302 distributor the same length from the underside clamp down flange to the bottom of the distributor gear as a 351 distributor? I run an external oil pump so the hex drive broach doesn't matter in my situation.

If true that would mean I could use the Explorer 5.0 cam sensor at a whopping $39.00. Wouldn't work for guys running conventional oil pumps of course.

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351 W deal won't clear TFS A460 tunnel Ram

Post  CDMBill on August 12th 2011, 1:21 am

Well plan A failed today as the 351W based cam sensor distributor housing wouldn't clear the TFS A460 Tneel Ram manifold even with a simple machined aluminum cap. I'm looking at the Explorer unit again as its much shorter but it has other issues as I understand it. I'll post when we have a workable solution. Other ideas welcome.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  res0rli9 on August 12th 2011, 1:38 am

CDMBill wrote:Well plan A failed today as the 351W based cam sensor distributor housing wouldn't clear the TFS A460 Tneel Ram manifold even with a simple machined aluminum cap. I'm looking at the Explorer unit again as its much shorter but it has other issues as I understand it. I'll post when we have a workable solution. Other ideas welcome.

I think Charlie Evans has a fix for the 351w dis. to fit the TFS A460 Tonal ram. He's a member here.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  DFI429 on August 12th 2011, 11:01 pm

What's wrong with a late-model EEC-IV 460 distributor? I'm pretty sure I remember reading quite a few success stories w/MS...
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crank position sensor/ cam sensor

Post  GaryS on August 13th 2011, 9:44 am

Have you considered the FAST distributor?

Dual-Sync Billet Distributor, Ford 351C-460

Quantity in Basket: None
Code: 305015
Price: $350.15
Shipping Weight: 7.00 pounds


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Distributroless ignition

Post  CDMBill on August 14th 2011, 9:18 am

Both distributor ideas are good but I currently run distributor-less using a 36-1 crank wheel and sensor with two wasted psark four tower coils mounted where the distibutor used to be. Timing is managed in the software spark map. Even if I went back to a disributor the only one that fits under the a460 Tunnel Ram is the special short MSD unit made for that purpose which doesn't have the cam sensor in it.

Our work around for the moment is a small Hall efffect sensor made by Cherry Corp a GS1005, were making a little bracket that wu ill mount it off the electric water pump and it'll pick up signal form a tab were ading to the belt drive cam gear. Photos to follow when it works.

I'm still looking for a compact Cam sensor hopefully based on common Ford parts, but that will likely be after Drag Week which is our time constraint.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  c.evans on August 14th 2011, 10:31 am

CDMBill wrote:Both distributor ideas are good but I currently run distributor-less using a 36-1 crank wheel and sensor with two wasted psark four tower coils mounted where the distibutor used to be. Timing is managed in the software spark map. Even if I went back to a disributor the only one that fits under the a460 Tunnel Ram is the special short MSD unit made for that purpose which doesn't have the cam sensor in it.

Our work around for the moment is a small Hall efffect sensor made by Cherry Corp a GS1005, were making a little bracket that wu ill mount it off the electric water pump and it'll pick up signal form a tab were ading to the belt drive cam gear. Photos to follow when it works.

I'm still looking for a compact Cam sensor hopefully based on common Ford parts, but that will likely be after Drag Week which is our time constraint.

"Even if I went back to a distributor the only one that fits under the A-460 tunnel ram is"............ and the answer is NO. What you can do is run the original factory 429-460 Motorcraft distributor, ( I rebuild them all the time) and one of my crab cap adapters that I make, then a Mallory 221 crab cap. It will all fit under the TFS A-460 tunnel ram. Just ask local drag racers Krisse Lawyer and George Keown who run this set-up.

The next step for the guys needing a cam sensor,,,is to machine all of the "stars", except one, off of the reluctor or star wheel as some people call it. Thus you have a cam sensor using the regular magnetic pick-up in the distributor.

Uncle Charlie

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  Paul Kane on August 15th 2011, 1:06 am

CDMBill wrote:Cam sensor for 460: Who makes one, or how to adapt or make one?
67XR7cat has made one using the 4.2L V6 one: http://www.network54.com/Forum/85220/thread/1127782151/EDIS+dist-+cam+position+sensor

CDMBill wrote:I've read a number of other posts in other places, but fabricating sleeves for a 3.8L unit is beyond my ability. Has anyone here solved this issue?
If you are talking about the 1.555" dimension versus the 1.500" dimension, it is a complete non-issue. All OEM Ford 460 distributors are 1.500" and so are some aftermarket ones (I think). The 1.555" dimension probably comes from an aftermarket distributor manufacturer who measured the distributor bore in the block instead of the distributor housing, and this was copied by others. (I suspect Steve either compared the 4.6 L to an aftermarket 460 distributor or he measured the block's bore himself.)

A properly sized o-ring centers the upper section of the 1.500" distributor body squarely in the block (along with/aligned by the shaft in the bore of the thrust boss) and so once the distributor's body is clamped down (by the distributor hold down) at its flange against the block, you'll be fine. I know a number of people that have exceeded 200 mph with the 1.500" diameter distributors.

I don't know if 67XR7cat is a member of this forum or not; if not then he may be found on 460ford.com

Paul


Last edited by Paul Kane on August 16th 2011, 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected info about 1.500" distributor housings)
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Custom Cam Sync - Sequential EFI

Post  Danny Cabral on April 2nd 2012, 5:23 pm

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  CDMBill on April 13th 2012, 1:21 pm

Thank you for the response Danny. Great work you've done there. I'm finally going to chase down the 42./3.8 can sensor unit and see what fits where using a spare block and cam. I also have an empty original 429 distributor housing and shaft assembly I used to use and a pre luber so I think I can make something between all these good ideas and parts. At the end of the day a cam sensor is a pretty simple deal. We'll see. I'll post up when its done.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  jbozzelle on April 14th 2012, 10:41 pm

Bill,

I'm a bit lost here. Do you not have the room to stick a dizzy on it? You wouldn't need the typical dist cap. You could just machine a cap to cover the reluctor/mag pickup.

Got any pics of your setup?

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  CDMBill on April 19th 2012, 1:53 pm

I'll see how I do here with pictures. The manifold is TFS A460 from Lem, ported by Wilson and with their EFI conversion and ProFlow fogger set up.



As installed in the car now the four tower coils are on a bracket mounted the top of the belt drive. Yes they could be moved, but a compact unit based on the 3.8 could tuck down behind the coil bracket.




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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  David Willingham on April 19th 2012, 6:24 pm

Not sure if this will help you, but here's how I did my cam sensor on the Danny Bee. I have the weapon X coils mounted on each side of the block. You can the pass side 4 mounted where the starter would normally be.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  466cj on April 21st 2012, 2:41 am

Bill,

I am the guy Paul Kane talked about who used the cam sensor body from a 5.0L and the shaft from a 4.2L sensor to make a cam sensor for the 460. It all fits together, just that the housing diameter on the 5.0L is smaller than the distributor hole in the block by about .055". My solution was to machine the body and make a sleeve. You could make a sleeve for the block too.

I've heard it is possible to use the 5.0L housing in a 460, as Paul says, but I just don't see how without some kind of spacer and is a long time ago. Then again maybe just need a thicker o-ring. I'd have to measure and look at it again.

MSD used to make a cam sensor for the 460, but it is discontinued. May be able to find one used. AEM makes a cam sensor for the 351w too and will work with just a gear change, just is $$$

If you have any questions happy to help.

Steve




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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  Danny Cabral on April 21st 2012, 5:35 am

466cj wrote:MSD used to make a cam sensor for the 460, but it is discontinued.
Maybe a Mallory FireStorm dual-sync sensor?
(#77207D - 351W) Expensive though...

http://prestoliteperformance.com/npds/2011/mallory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCBMeUek4jQ
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-77207D/

To be frank, a cam-sync is just too easy with an exposed cam gear
(belt drive), distributorless ignition and an external oil pump!
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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  466cj on April 29th 2012, 12:27 am

That mallory is a new one. Does not say what crank count is, and seems they want you to use it with their system.

The AEM one I already mentioned is similar, does 24 and 1, and also ridiculously expensive, although less than the Mallery one.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/engine-position-module-for-ford-351-windsor-block-701

Personally I don't like the idea of using a cam driven sensor for the crank position signal. GM did that on their opti-spark system. Idea was to have a hi-resolution signal, but they found out all that gitter from the cam and timing chain killed the accuracy. That is why in 1996 when OBDII came out they had to add a wheel and sensor to the crank to do the mis-fire detection, even though the engine still had the opti-spark setup.

Do agree getting the signal off the cam gear a good way to go. I think would not be to hard to modify a fuel pump block off plate and add a metal "tang" in place of the fuel pump eccentric. Then all you need a stub shaft to drive the oil pump.

Steve

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  Danny Cabral on April 29th 2012, 8:29 am

466cj wrote:That Mallory is a new one. Does not say what crank count is, and seems they want you to use it with their system.
I believe he's using a crank trigger (crankshaft positioning), so he would only be using the camshaft positioning signal.

I think would not be to hard to modify a fuel pump block off plate and add a metal "tang" in place of the fuel pump eccentric.
The fuel pump block off plate is an interesting idea but I think it's too far away. It's worth looking into though.

Then all you need a stub shaft to drive the oil pump.
Personally, I prefer the oil pump/distributor shaft providing the camshaft positioning signal because if the oil pump drive components fail, the engine will stall (fail-safe).

Personally I don't like the idea of using a cam driven sensor for the crank position signal. Idea was to have a hi-resolution signal, but they found out all that jitter [instability] from the cam and timing chain killed the accuracy.
I agree; a crank trigger should always be used for the crankshaft positioning signal.
The valve train slack doesn't affect the camshaft positioning signal because it's only a "single pulse per rotation" type signal within a wide window of crank degrees. The valvetrain would have to be practically falling apart (failing) to affect the output of this signal.
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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  466cj on April 29th 2012, 8:56 am

I was just commenting on how they are trying to sell those sensor to take care of the crank signal too and yes not an issue if using just for the cam signal.

The fuel pump access just an idea I had from looking at what they did with the belt drive. Next time I have a front cover off on a BBF take some measurements see if it would work.

Regarding the engine shutting off if the cam signal is lost ( distributor gear failure) that would depend on how the ECM is programmed. Most systems only look at the cam signal once and that is at start up to determine when #1 is at the end of the compression stroke. Once you know that is no reason to look at it again until the next start up.

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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  Danny Cabral on April 29th 2012, 12:50 pm

466cj wrote:Most systems only look at the cam signal once and that is at start up to determine when #1 is at the end of the compression stroke. Once you know that is no reason to look at it again until the next start up. Steve
Which aftermarket EFI systems do that? I don't like that.
If I disconnect the cam sync sensor (sequential) on my Holley EFI, the engine stalls.
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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  466cj on April 29th 2012, 1:22 pm

Honestly cannot say on any particular system. Most of my experience is with the OEM and Megasquirt stuff and not bothered with the sequential MS stuff, I didn't find any information on it so will have to look at what they do in the code.

What I do know is many OEM systems that just check it upon start up. I've disconnected Cam sensor on running engines and it not even set a code. To me I'd rather NOT have the engine stall out if the sensor goes south. If you think about it could leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere or result in an accident.

I'd rather have something that fails safe mode than just falls flat. To me that Holley system is not very robust. As to the concern about loss of oil pressure, in addition to a gauge just add a light and an audible alarm. If the oil pump drive shaft broke the cam sensor would still work and you would fry your engine.

Steve


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Re: Cam sensor for 460

Post  Danny Cabral on April 29th 2012, 2:57 pm

466cj wrote:To me that Holley system is not very robust.
The Holley Dominator EFI system? Yeah...OK.
I won't even dignify that with an answer.
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