small big block or big small block

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 1st 2016, 7:32 pm

In my quest to build a Southeast Gasser. I am faced with an 8.0 per cubic inch rule and stick shift straight axle 11inch tire rules.
Do I build a .060 over 429 or a 427 Windsor. I know I can use a stock block and crank in the 429 and I will have to use an aftermarket block and stroker kit for the Windsor.
The heads rules are open as long as the valve angle stays stock. I was going to run a tunnel ram and 2 carbs on the 429. The Windsor has no tunnel ram without running
a 302 manifold with spacers.
Stack injection is an option for both engines. Has anybody built a high rpm 429 stick shift drag motor?

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 1st 2016, 8:11 pm

southcross wrote:In my quest to build a Southeast Gasser. I am faced with an 8.0 per cubic inch rule and stick shift straight axle 11inch tire rules.
 Do I build a .060 over 429 or a 427 Windsor. I know I can use a stock block and crank in the 429 and I will have to use an aftermarket block and stroker kit for the Windsor.
The heads rules are open as long as the valve angle stays stock. I was going to run a tunnel ram and 2 carbs on the 429. The Windsor has no tunnel ram without running
a 302 manifold with spacers.
Stack injection is an option for both engines. Has anybody built a high rpm 429 stick shift drag motor?

Just a production single 780cfm  4 barrel, D0OE-R headed Super Stock 429 Cobra Jet engine.

Made near 790 horsepower at 8,800 RPM with not a lot of torque.  Wasn't exactly an inexpensive, mild mannered piece

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  dfree383 on June 1st 2016, 9:56 pm

A 400" 351c or Boss 9 would be interesting.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  FalconEh on June 1st 2016, 10:30 pm

Would destroking be feasible?, weren't Glidden's Cleveland's 340ish and they spun to the 10K range, thinking like a destroked 460 which would normally be a 429 cu/in but maybe something in between that would be more cost effective than a SS package.
avatar
FalconEh

Posts : 1419
Join date : 2014-08-21
Location : on the blacktop or in the mountains ????

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 1st 2016, 11:22 pm

FalconEh wrote:Would destroking be feasible?,  weren't Glidden's Cleveland's 340ish and they spun to the 10K range, thinking like a destroked 460 which would normally be a 429 cu/in but maybe something in between that would be more cost effective than a SS package.

That was my point ...
A 429 "bracket" type engine with some aluminum Trick Flow heads and a Tunnel Ram using 2 Dominators could easily surpass that Super Stock engine's power level ... at about half the money spent.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 2nd 2016, 7:24 am

All good suggestions but no Dominators 660 cfm dual carbs max. Inline carbs only. I am leaning toward a .060 over 429 ,good heads,lots of compression and mechanical
roller. Try to kill torque and make horsepower.
All the races are 1/8th mile heads up. The best cars are mid 6 seconds. I have run a lot of Big Block Chevys in the past,but I am now running Fords .
I like the 385 series motors having reworked a bunch of them in the 80's as a Ford dealership mechanic,but those were
for towing. Back when you could go to the parts room and have 429 cobra jet heads on the shelf in stock, change the 460 timing set for 429 stuff .
My boss would go to the auction in Phoenix and load two cars on a trailer and run up the mountain to Springerville like nothing. Before the mods he could barely haul one car.
How good are the Ford racing Super Cobra Jet heads?

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  dfree383 on June 2nd 2016, 8:18 am

They are great heads, but to be real good need a little rubbing, the Kaase P51's are a lot better out of the box.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 2nd 2016, 9:23 am

dfree383 wrote:They are great heads, but to be real good need a little rubbing, the Kaase P51's are a lot better out of the box.

Those Trick Flow heads are available new already CNC ported.
STOCK PRODUCTION valve angles are needed however, we would need for him to let us know ALL the engine rules.
Ford Racing Super Cobra Jet heads or P-51's do NOT have O.E.M. production valve angles.

They are allowed a stack type fuel injection but, NOT Dominators or even 4150 model 850's ... some crazy rules there.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gmsmkr on June 2nd 2016, 10:36 am

I would go with a dome top 351w stock stroke with high port heads a solid roller cam worked single carb and the tko 600 with a good 3.90 -4.30 gear depending on tire size and run low 6s all day
avatar
gmsmkr

Posts : 1364
Join date : 2014-06-22
Location : alabama

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gt350hr on June 2nd 2016, 10:52 am

408" 351C with CHI heads will weigh less and make over 800 hp. Fill the block with hard block and hang on. The 660's won't hold it back on a tunnel ram like a Weiand Pro Ram.

gt350hr

Posts : 423
Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : Anaheim , CA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 2nd 2016, 12:33 pm

The rules are at southeast gassers.com They are very strict on looking like the 1967 rule book for Gassers. In a single carb setup you can use any 4150 base carb as long as it is a
Dichromate finished carb. Meaning Holley,not Quick Fuel or the other look a like Holleys. Stack injection was available back then so its an option. 660's are only for dual carb applications. No Dominators !!!
Are edelbrock Victors stock valve angle. I just don't want to run iron heads for the weight over nose. I can run a 427 Windsor,but I really would like the big bore short stroke 385
so I can run a tunnel ram. Seeing as I have 2 fresh carbs.
I am 66 years old and have been racing since I was 16 and this will probably be my last build . I have run Chevrolets almost exclusively except for a 63 1/2 406 Super stocker and a 65 Comet convertible AHRA formula stock car.
My hot rod shop that I run favors Ford street rods and resto mods so Ford drag car it is. I can build anything ,I just haven't built a 385 drag motor so that's my goal.
This site is for the 385 motor and I figured there would have been someone who has built big bore short stroke high rpm motors and can pass on any advice to make this project come together.

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gt350hr on June 2nd 2016, 12:39 pm

The small block Victors are 15* valve angle.

gt350hr

Posts : 423
Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : Anaheim , CA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 2nd 2016, 12:42 pm

What about big block Victors? I know about the small block heads.

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  IDT-572 on June 2nd 2016, 2:17 pm

Factory Dooe-r's  stocker 660's, and a modified tunnel ram would be cool kicking butt in that class, and with the axles moved I don't think hooking would be a problem. work on weight removal on the front end else where.

Turn tha wee out of it............ Leave the line and sound like a McCullough chainsaw.

Of coarse I'm a cut and dried 385 guy. Twisted Evil
avatar
IDT-572
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 4581
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 57
Location : Shelbyville Tn.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gt350hr on June 2nd 2016, 6:39 pm

So am I until the weight "outweighs" the hp potential. LOL

gt350hr

Posts : 423
Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : Anaheim , CA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 2nd 2016, 8:43 pm

The 850 center shooter carburetors list number 4223 were released for sale the same day as the 660 center shooter carbs list number 4224.The zinc Holley 3 barrel carb was released in the mid 60's BEFORE the center shooters.
A 385 series engine was not itself even available before 1968.

Rules are rules but, your reasoning just doesn't fly. For 66 years old you sure don't know what was and what was not available back then.

EDIT;  AND, the early Barry Grant carbs were zinc dichromate and so were the early Quick Fuel carbs. Big 4150 Braswall carbs are STILL zinc dichromate but, none of those go back to the 60's..

EDIT:  Don't read anything into the rules ... what do they actually SAY.

EDIT:  There certainly is a Tunnel Ram intake manifold available for a Cleveland headed engine or is that alsoi lligal..


Last edited by rmcomprandy on June 2nd 2016, 9:21 pm; edited 5 times in total

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 2nd 2016, 8:55 pm

southcross wrote:What about big block Victors? I know about the small block heads.

The Trick Flow head will make more power but, I am guessing that you don't really care about power output.

Almost everything you have said has a contradiction in it somewhere.  Taking a 429 to over 9,000 is not a problem if you don't want much torque and are willing to spend the amount of money it will take.
From those high RPM launches, just how many drive-line parts are you prepared to fix....?

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 2nd 2016, 11:34 pm

I didn't write the rule book .I am just trying to build a motor that fits their rules. They say Holley carbs so you run Holley carbs or don't run. Yes you can run a Cleveland
with a tunnel ram and two 660's maximum. Not 2 850's. If I wanted to run a Cleveland I would be on a Cleveland site.
I know that 385 motors came out in 68 ,but they are allowing them. You Ford guys sure make it hard to get information to build a 429.
Maybe I should just use a Bowtie in the Comet. I wouldn't need advice on how to build one of those.
I want to keep the car all Ford. Their rules are very strict ,but they have between 35-40 cars at every show and at the race in Greer.SC. they had to lock the
entrance gate because they couldn't get any more people in. Go to a bracket race and look in the stands and count the people who come to watch you race.

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  bbf-falcon on June 3rd 2016, 4:16 am

There is a BIG Ford race that most of the BigDog guys from this site will be attending next weekend in Hardinsburg Ky. Plus on that same Saturday evening i'm pretty sure there will be a GASSER event with a lot of Fords there. This group can make the 385 series Ford do just about anything possible and willing to always help. Don't be offended by some of our brash comments,we are all good ole boys that will always be there to help each other out. Welcome to the site and keep us posted on your build. Where are you from?
http://www.429-460.com/t24196-ford-race-flyer-times-added

bbf-falcon

Posts : 8992
Join date : 2008-12-03
Location : Jackson, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  nuclearcobra on June 3rd 2016, 7:43 am

A .030 or .060 429 with aluminum Cobra Jet A429's ?
avatar
nuclearcobra
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 1361
Join date : 2009-08-16
Location : Delaware Coast

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  IDT-572 on June 3rd 2016, 9:13 am

I never saw where you wanted a build sheet for a 429.............. I have already told you that was the way to go.

A ported set of A 429's (400+cfm) on a high compression 429 will make the power.

But a high winding 429 (low Tq.)will help keeping it hooked on the launch with careful gear selection.

Are sheet metal tunnel rams out of the question?

I have seen and so has Randy a stocker 429 make over 800 hp and do it with a single I think 750 Holley and with the factory style Quad or what ever the factory spread bore card was.

It's amazing how much weight you can drop off of a block by grinding off un-needed castings. a friend of mine got a aluminum headed 440 Dodge down to the weight of a cast small Chevy.

avatar
IDT-572
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 4581
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 57
Location : Shelbyville Tn.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 3rd 2016, 9:22 am

That's the type of help I am looking for. Who makes a good forged piston for the ford motorsports super cobra jet heads? I prefer a flat top piston for even flame travel.
 What is the upper safe limit for a stock crank balanced with main studs? Rebuilt rods or aftermarket?  I am going to use a solid roller.
  The car has to weigh 3478 at 435 cubic inches. It will be easier to locate a 460 core to start with and just find a 429 crank.
   Tunnel ram and 2 660 holleys.
 I can go A/Gas at 6.0 lbs per cubic inch which opens up stroker combos.
  Thanks again for the advice. You are never too old to learn . After racing since the mid 60's you never get too smart or you get behind.
No sheetmetal intakes

southcross

Posts : 37
Join date : 2016-06-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  dfree383 on June 3rd 2016, 9:34 am

Not trying to be difficult, trying to help you get a winning combo.

A 385 series Ford big strength is its ability to Go Big, your rules are not working with us in this respect

660 carbs and 8# per inch may not be the best playground For a BBF IMO

A 380-400" Cleveland / Windsor is going to offer several advantages, light weight, great cylinder heads, fantastic specific output per CID and will be able to work well with the small carbs.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 3rd 2016, 10:49 am

southcross wrote:I didn't write the rule book .I am just trying to build a motor that fits their rules. They say Holley carbs so you run Holley carbs or don't run. Yes you can run a Cleveland
with a tunnel ram and two 660's maximum. Not 2 850's. If I wanted to run a Cleveland I would be on a Cleveland site.
 I know that 385 motors came out in 68 ,but they are allowing them. You Ford guys sure make it hard to get information to build a 429.
 Maybe I should just use a Bowtie in the Comet. I wouldn't need advice on how to build one of those.
  I want to keep the car all Ford. Their rules are very strict , but they have between 35-40 cars at every show and at the race in Greer.SC. they had to lock the
entrance gate because they couldn't get any more people in. Go to a bracket race and look in the stands and count the people who come to watch you race.
 

We all know YOU didn't write the rules. That is why I said NOT to read anything into them or their meaning but, ONLY what is actually written.
We all here would love to see a big block Ford running here but, all these guys are simply being SURE you are being made aware that a better FORD scenario is available.

Your own question at the beginning of this thread IS, "small big block or big small block" ...?

A 429 big block will NOT be "high winding" with 2 carbs of 660 size on a Tunnel Ram. Maybe 7,200 to 7,600 RPM and most of us here would not consider that RPM level "high winding"

The long discontinued A429 aluminum Cobra Jet head is a good head but, that Trick Flow "Power Port 325" head is the BEST "big block" option for what you wish to do; using a port matched Weiand Hi-Ram manifold with your 2 center shooter 660 carbs.

AGAIN, a Ford Racing SCJ head does NOT have stock O.E.M. valve angles.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4985
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gt350hr on June 3rd 2016, 1:19 pm

southcross wrote:I didn't write the rule book .I am just trying to build a motor that fits their rules. They say Holley carbs so you run Holley carbs or don't run. Yes you can run a Cleveland
with a tunnel ram and two 660's maximum. Not 2 850's. If I wanted to run a Cleveland I would be on a Cleveland site.
 I know that 385 motors came out in 68 ,but they are allowing them. You Ford guys sure make it hard to get information to build a 429.
 Maybe I should just use a Bowtie in the Comet. I wouldn't need advice on how to build one of those.
  I want to keep the car all Ford. Their rules are very strict ,but they have between 35-40 cars at every show and at the race in Greer.SC. they had to lock the
entrance gate because they couldn't get any more people in. Go to a bracket race and look in the stands and count the people who come to watch you race.
 

I'm only two years younger than you but I have been racing just as long and ONLY Fords. "I" suggested a 351C as it is the IMHO the best possible power to engine weight package that fits within you rules. You don't want to run one , fine.
"WE" Ford guys are REALLY good at helping those who are lost. The question is do you want to win or just run with the group? If you want to win a flat top piston won't give you enough compression to make BIG power. You will need an aftermarket rod as factory rods won't hang with RPM. Mid 270s or more @.050 solid roller with .750 or more lift. Plus the best set of heads you can afford. Turn it 8,500 -9,000. There are guys here that have done more with less . Listen to them.





gt350hr

Posts : 423
Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : Anaheim , CA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum