Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

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Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  rocketpony on November 21st 2016, 1:03 am

Thing is I'm 16 hours and a 6 hour ferry ride each way to nearest dyno, so that's out.
I'm changing camshaft and adding vacuum pump., so wondering will engine make 1200 hp at the crank ?
Motor now consists of:
600 ci
15:1 cr
Cam 898/898,  295/308, 117 lsa
Pro systems 1475 carb
Ford c460 intake fully ported by Oakley Motorsports
C460 heads done by Oakley Motorsports (527/347 cfm)
Wet sump
Jomar powercone spacer
Vacuum pump
Roller cam bearings
Q16 fuel

Thanks

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  BBFTorino on November 21st 2016, 1:27 am

Its tempting to just say no, but if it don't make it, it seems like it's going to be pretty darn close!!

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Doug Rahn on November 21st 2016, 8:08 am

I guess it's certainly possible. About 5 years ago Mike and I witnessed Phillip do it on a C head build of his, of coarse his was a 645 cu in., but knowing the kind of man Phillip is, he's not one to sit on his butt and not find more power in the intake and heads. Could be close.
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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 10:14 am

Looks like you have the parts for 1200. Putting them together for 1200 is a different story. That's a pretty wide lobe sep. Might be a little short on ex dur.
Intake manifold is going to dictate a lot.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 11:13 am

295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  68galaxie on November 21st 2016, 11:43 am

I think this is a nitrous build? Hence the wide lobe separation.
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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 11:49 am

68galaxie wrote:I think this is a nitrous build? Hence the wide lobe separation.
If it's a dedicated N20 build then IMO it's REALLY short on ex dur. I only mentioned LSA because it's an indication of what the events may be. LSA isn't really a design criteria, it's just a result of the valve events.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 11:50 am

Lem Evans wrote:295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.
You'd be REALLY surprised what the 611 had...

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  68galaxie on November 21st 2016, 12:27 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
If it's a dedicated N20 build then IMO it's REALLY short on ex dur. I only mentioned LSA because it's an indication of what the events may be. LSA isn't really a design criteria, it's just a result of the valve events.

I never said LSA was "THE" design criterion. The "resulting" wider LSA is a result of earlier exhaust valve opening that some nitrous camshaft designers use.


Cheers
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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  rmcomprandy on November 21st 2016, 12:35 pm

rocketpony wrote:Thing is I'm 16 hours and a 6 hour ferry ride each way to nearest dyno, so that's out.
I'm changing camshaft and adding vacuum pump., so wondering will engine make 1200 hp at the crank ?
Motor now consists of:
600 ci
15:1 cr
Cam 898/898,  295/308, 117 lsa
Pro systems 1475 carb
Ford c460 intake fully ported by Oakley Motorsports
C460 heads done by Oakley Motorsports (527/347 cfm)
Wet sump
Jomar powercone spacer
Vacuum pump
Roller cam bearings
Q16 fuel

Thanks

In my opinion, A lot will depend upon the inner crankcase and oil pan parasitic loss along with the intake end runners being short enough to make more power over 7,000 RPM.

I think you'll get near there but, it will take quite a bit of tuning.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 12:50 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.
You'd be REALLY surprised what the 611 had...

I'm not sure the 611 package is relative to this package. Caming this engine for a RPM range that the cast manifold ain't gonna allow is not the way to go i.m.o.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  rocketpony on November 21st 2016, 1:07 pm

Thanks for all the input guys
It's not a dedicated n20 but it does occasionally see it, hence the lsa
I would think with this intake that it would b max hp by 7000rpm?
Thanks

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 1:15 pm

rocketpony wrote:Thanks for all the input guys
It's not a dedicated n20 but it does occasionally see it, hence the lsa
I would think with this intake that it would b max hp by 7000rpm?
Thanks

Schmitty's 632 peaked @ 7,400 so it should be at least that with your 600" engine.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  rocketpony on November 21st 2016, 1:41 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
rocketpony wrote:Thanks for all the input guys
It's not a dedicated n20 but it does occasionally see it, hence the lsa
I would think with this intake that it would b max hp by 7000rpm?
Thanks

Schmitty's 632 peaked @ 7,400 so it should be at least that with your 600" engine.

Oh ok, good to know! Thanks

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  whatbumper on November 21st 2016, 2:49 pm

If it doesn't I'd definitely look at the cam.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 3:45 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.
You'd be REALLY surprised what the 611 had...

I'm not sure the 611 package is relative to this package. Caming this engine for a RPM range that the cast manifold ain't gonna allow is not the way to go i.m.o.  
That all depends on the porting. I "assumed' the intake was up to the cam specs, or vise-verse. The 611 made peak at 8000. If this engine isn't going there -or close- then IMO the cam is all together wrong and 1200 is out of the question. Lift and intake duration are very close to the 611.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 3:49 pm

rocketpony wrote:Thanks for all the input guys
It's not a dedicated n20 but it does occasionally see it, hence the lsa
I would think with this intake that it would b max hp by 7000rpm?
Thanks
Unless you're spraying more than about 400hp I would build (and cam) the engine to optimize it's NA potential and let the N20 do what it will.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 4:20 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
rocketpony wrote:Thanks for all the input guys
It's not a dedicated n20 but it does occasionally see it, hence the lsa
I would think with this intake that it would b max hp by 7000rpm?
Thanks
Unless you're spraying more than about 400hp I would build (and cam) the engine to optimize it's NA potential and let the N20 do what it will.

Something we agree on Laughing A properly camed n.a. engine doesn't seem to much mind a 350ish shot.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 4:38 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.
You'd be REALLY surprised what the 611 had...

I'm not sure the 611 package is relative to this package. Caming this engine for a RPM range that the cast manifold ain't gonna allow is not the way to go i.m.o.  
That all depends on the porting. I "assumed' the intake was up to the cam specs, or vise-verse. The 611 made peak at 8000. If this engine isn't going there -or close- then IMO the cam is all together wrong and 1200 is out of the question. Lift and intake duration are very close to the 611.

A HRE or CFE tunnel ram is a whole different world but, they ain't a $600 manifold either. A guy could spend a butt load of $ welding and grinding on that cast manifold to let an engine run higher but, i.m.o. that's not the way to go unless it's rules driven.

The majority of the drag race guys build the 598-632" stuff so that they can run quick w/o turning 8,000 and beyond.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 21st 2016, 5:00 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:295* @ .050" on the intake lobe is more than what I've seen work on similar engines.
You'd be REALLY surprised what the 611 had...

I'm not sure the 611 package is relative to this package. Caming this engine for a RPM range that the cast manifold ain't gonna allow is not the way to go i.m.o.  
That all depends on the porting. I "assumed' the intake was up to the cam specs, or vise-verse. The 611 made peak at 8000. If this engine isn't going there -or close- then IMO the cam is all together wrong and 1200 is out of the question. Lift and intake duration are very close to the 611.

A HRE or CFE tunnel ram is a whole different world but, they ain't a $600 manifold either. A guy could spend a butt load of $ welding and grinding on that cast manifold to let an engine run higher but, i.m.o. that's not the way to go unless it's rules driven.

The majority of the drag race guys build the 598-632" stuff so that they can run quick w/o turning 8,000 and beyond.
   
I agree, but that's about the only way you're going to make 2/ci with a single four. Seems we have apples and oranges here... looking for 8000rpm performance with an 8000rpm cam and only a 7000rpm intake?

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 7:07 pm

I don't consider the manifold a 7,000 rpm piece.....should be at least a 7,500 on a 600". Rob's 632 was only pulled to 7,400 on the last pull and I wish it had been higher....but I suspect it'd been the same or up a couple at 7,500 based on what I've observed in the past. What these cheap C460 manifolds do well is hang on past peak....does not fall on it's ass 300-400 above peak hp.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  68formalGT on November 21st 2016, 7:15 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Unless you're spraying more than about 400hp I would build (and cam) the engine to optimize it's NA potential and let the N20 do what it will.

Something we agree on Laughing  A properly camed n.a. engine doesn't seem to much mind a 350ish shot.

Lem and Scott, can you expand on this some, could a nitrous class spraying @350 and an n/a class be ran with the same truck with minimal to no changes?
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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  Lem Evans on November 21st 2016, 7:32 pm

68formalGT wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Unless you're spraying more than about 400hp I would build (and cam) the engine to optimize it's NA potential and let the N20 do what it will.

Something we agree on Laughing  A properly camed n.a. engine doesn't seem to much mind a 350ish shot.

Lem and Scott, can you expand on this some, could a nitrous class spraying @350 and an n/a class be ran with the same truck with minimal to no changes?

I think what we both have said is that you can run the same cam if done properly. Ign. timing is what YOU gotta figure out when the spray comes on.
Opening up the piston to head clearance would be a small compromise to make the engine less fussy about timing when it's on the hose.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  whatbumper on November 21st 2016, 7:46 pm

68formalGT wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
Unless you're spraying more than about 400hp I would build (and cam) the engine to optimize it's NA potential and let the N20 do what it will.

Something we agree on Laughing  A properly camed n.a. engine doesn't seem to much mind a 350ish shot.

Lem and Scott, can you expand on this some, could a nitrous class spraying @350 and an n/a class be ran with the same truck with minimal to no changes?

Depends on whose "350 shot" you are talking about. There is a large window in pph flow on the market with the same horsepower goal. On the box store kits the answer is an easy yes that it will work but..... On a dedicated class deal the answer is no because you will make more power. I have a huge customer base in pill limited classes and will say that you will not be optimized for one or the other most likely.

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Re: Will I finally make 1200 hp with a single 4?

Post  rocketpony on November 21st 2016, 9:43 pm

Wow! Lot of great information guys!
Nice to See the elaboration

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