429/460 Overheating Issue

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Speedwaypj on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:18 am

429/460 Overheating Issue

Overheating Issue.
Here is video of set-up : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcaeBe7fAg

Building '67 Cobra Rpl - engine in frame - using large garage fan for cooling.
'69 Ford 429 Stroked to 460, Comp Cam, Rods, Pistons, Holley 750cfm, Edelbrock Torker II Intake, roller rockers, High flow/High Pressure Fuel Pump, High flow/High Pressure Oil Pump, High flow/High Pressure Water pump. Around 11:1 Comp est.
Initial timing @ 12 D BTDC;
Running w/o thermostat (Tried 180 and 160 - overheats)
Radiator Cap inline with output.

PART 1:
With Temp = 72 degrees....ran for 100 Minutes (stationary) with the following results.....
Fan on High – 45 minutes
= temp at 195 degrees Oil @ 50# psi
Fan on Medium – 60 minutes (Total)
= 212 degrees Oil @ 42# (Oil filter = 218)
Fan on LOW – 70 minutes (Total)
= 230 degrees Oil @ 39# (Oil filter = 234)
started pushing water out –all most filled overflow quart bottle.
Fan back on High at 70 – 100 minutes
= temp down to 210 degrees Oil @ 39#

With the thermostat installed it'll go up to 230 degrees and keep climbing.

So, I read many posts and nothing seems to jump out....other than someone pointed out that if the head gaskets are installed backwards it may cause overheating because the gasket should have larger holes to the rear. I have included pics of my gasket and block. It does seem as though the gasket may be backwards per location of degrading holes. However, looking at the pictures, Its hard for me to believe that would make a difference...
Might get a water pressure gauge to monitor it....and try the timing at 16 D BTDC.....
Thoughts? Opinions? Experience?

PART 2:
When first starts, it pushes about 1/2 qt within first couple of minutes.. Because cap is low and high flow Water pump? So with the water pushing out I was thinking of putting the radiator cap on the “low pressure” side of the radiator, there is a petcock on the top that I can hook into and set up a pressure can and overflow...would this work?
Any comments would be appreciated.......SpeedwayPJ
Pic: http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/429-460-engine-talk/30504d1499381699-429-460-overheating-issue-gasket.jpg
Pic: http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/429-460-engine-talk/30503d1499381699-429-460-overheating-issue-block.jpg

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:41 am

Starting from the beginning:

Are both head gaskets indexed correctly on the engine ...? One backwards, maybe...?

A divorced electric fan is not near enough ... an engine fan WITH A CORRECT SHROUD or high flow puller radiator fans, with enough flow capacity, will be required.

Most aftermarket "High Flow" water pumps usually only flow more water at high RPM and actually flow less water with lower block pressure at near idle.

Only one company I know about addresses higher idle water flow ... "FlowKooler"  ... 1 800 342-6759

Get initial timing up near 18 and be sure the TOTAL timing will be correct for whatever heads you are using. Different heads have different total timing requirements.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  BOSS 429 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:22 am

get rid of the thermostat, a stats job IS NOT TO KEEP AN ENGINE COOL, it's job is to KEEP IT HOT.
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Reply to rmcomprandy

Post  Speedwaypj on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:39 am

rmcomprandy
Appreciate the feed back!
I'm not sure if you had a chance to compare photos but looking at the ones I've taken, it does look like the left bank gasket is wrong...unless I flipped it (I built it about 4 yrs ago). Especially if you look at the lower rear section....small hole in gasket back there. I don't have pic of right side.

Fan I'm using is very strong..(see video)...I plan to use mechanical 18" Flex fan with shroud.(can't build shroud till body fitting).Plus electric if needed.

Heads are cleaned-up '69 Ford (T-bird) - 429 "Thunderjet" heads C8VE-E ~75 to 77cc.. Where would I find info on timing for those heads? ....so I plan to try 18 degrees....

Also: Part 2....is it feasible to put radiator cap/overflow tank on "Lower pressure" side of radiator?

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  zbob on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:51 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:get rid of the thermostat, a stats job IS NOT TO KEEP AN ENGINE COOL, it's job is to KEEP IT HOT.


and lock out the timing. especially in a car that light. you are not driving a tugboat. I finally did that this year to my car. I bought into the recurve the distrib, blah blah. it was a load of shit. car runs cooler, starts when hot......bobn

zbob

Posts : 236
Join date : 2009-08-17
Age : 62
Location : mn

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:17 pm

For running engines just like that, I have and watched simple temporary shrouds made from a corrugated cardboard box.

On all Ford Motor Company gaskets for that engine the lower corners are different; rounded in the rear and square in the front.

Edit; spelling


Last edited by rmcomprandy on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  BOSS 429 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:29 pm

zbob wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:get rid of the thermostat, a stats job IS NOT TO KEEP AN ENGINE COOL, it's job is to KEEP IT HOT.


and lock out the timing. especially in a car that light. you are not driving a tugboat. I finally did that this year to my car. I bought into the recurve the distrib, blah blah. it was a load of shit. car runs cooler, starts when hot......bobn



yup ,throw the stat away,and lock it out.
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:53 am

With the head gaskets installed correctly (large hole at the rear) X amount of the water flow moves the correct direction (water enters the block at front & moves front-to-rear, then it moves up into the rear of the head and moves rear-to-front, then it moves up into the front of the intake and exits the thermostat housing).

With the head gaskets installed backward (large hole at the front) X amount of the water flow takes a shortcut path bypassing much of the rear cylinders (water enters the block at front & then it moves up into the front of the head, & then it moves up into the front of the intake and exits the thermostat housing).

Also the radiator cap/radiator cap housing/radiator vent-puke hose assembly needs to be the highest point in the cooling system to help remove trapped air from the system. If the top of the radiator is the highest point in the cooling system then that's where the radiator cap needs to be. If the top radiator hose is the highest point in the cooling system then that's where the radiator cap needs to be in an inline housing. If the thermostat housing is the highest point in the cooling system then that's where the radiator cap needs to be.  

If the radiator cap/radiator cap housing/radiator vent-puke hose assembly is lower than the highest point in the system (tops of the heads, or intake, or radiator) then you end up with trapped air in the cooling system.
avatar
DILLIGASDAVE

Posts : 2123
Join date : 2009-08-07
Location : Texas. pronounced "texASS"

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Doug Rahn on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:02 am

IMHO, based on what I see in your first photo with the head gasket coated with Coppercoat, that gasket is backwards. The hole you have circled in the lower right hand corner should be in the front. Like Dave said, if installed backwards the rear cylinders are going to run hotter than the rest. It does make a difference, been there done that! One other point I always bring up when someone post a thread about overheating is to make sure if your running a mechanical water pump, that you have the backing plate installed between the pump and timing cover. Without the backing plate the clearance between the impeller and cover is greater and the pump will be less efficient at pushing the water through the system. I would also imagine that there would be a lot of turbulence that will affect the water flow.
avatar
Doug Rahn
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 1591
Join date : 2009-08-07
Age : 66
Location : Springfield, GA

View user profile http://www.cardomain.com/ride/228081

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Doug Rahn on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:19 am

I should point out that the reason I said "been there done that", is about 10 or 15 years ago my nephew had a '70 something pickup with a 460 he put in with new iron cylinder heads. His temps were running a little higher that yours. We pulled the heads and he had installed both gaskets backwards, also note that there where no FRONT markings on either gasket. We installed new gaskets in the correct direction, problem solved.
avatar
Doug Rahn
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 1591
Join date : 2009-08-07
Age : 66
Location : Springfield, GA

View user profile http://www.cardomain.com/ride/228081

Back to top Go down

wrong orientation

Post  Speedwaypj on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:11 am

Thanks for ALL the feedback; I can see the square edge of the head gasket at the rear of the left head......So I am looking forward to fixing that....Again, thanks to everyone! Pic a little fuzzy (evidently I might have been also when installing it) but it shows the wrong orientation.....but good news....The right side is good! So I'll see what I can get done today (Promised wife a winery visit today)..
Thanks....PJ

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/429-460-engine-talk/30515d1499522700-429-460-overheating-issue-lftreargasket1.jpg

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Yep wrong orientation

Post  Speedwaypj on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:42 pm

got it pulled apart......wrong orientation...but that's a good thing if it solves my heat issue....off to the winery.....Darn

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

R&RHead Gasket - Update

Post  Speedwaypj on Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:18 am

Appreciate the input from all!
I replaced head gasket, and intakes...noticed old intake gaskets had center water port closed off for manifold. Replacement intake gasket has it opened. Should help. I built a shroud that covers about 2/3 of radiator. (I'm running 6 blade flex fan). Still seems to get hot while idling(235 F). If I use aux garage fan it goes down to 210 F. So, I guess I'll find out when I have permanent shroud....and if needed I'll add elec fan.......... The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra. (Timing is at 16 BTDC)

Update to this update - mod shroud to include 95% of radiator... seemed better....still temp creeps up to 230F, but if I set idle high (~ 2500) it will bring it down to around 210.....still pushing antifreeze out, about 1 1/2 qt. Radiator cap inline with output, high location...may need expansion tank to accommodate expansion when hot.
still doesn't make sense to me... 6 blade flex fan, good shroud, mild upgrade on engine...(when I had head off, everything looked ok...no leaking gasket)
I guess I'll get an aux electric fan...and see what happens....yes there is a plate behind water pump.

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  maverick on Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:27 am

Wouldn't a smaller pulley on the water pump/fan address 2 issues at once?...i.e., more water flow and more airflow at all speeds?
avatar
maverick
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 3033
Join date : 2009-08-06
Age : 65

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  cool40 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:51 am

I'm gona bet it has air trapped in the cooling system. scratch
avatar
cool40
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 7018
Join date : 2009-08-31
Age : 46
Location : on the 1/8 mile dyno

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  BOSS 429 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:16 pm

Speedwaypj wrote:Appreciate the input from all!
I replaced head gasket, and intakes...noticed old intake gaskets had center water port closed off for manifold. Replacement intake gasket has it opened. Should help. I built a shroud that covers about 2/3 of radiator. (I'm running 6 blade flex fan). Still seems to get hot while idling(235 F). If I use aux garage fan it goes down to 210 F. So, I guess I'll find out when I have permanent shroud....and if needed I'll add elec fan.......... The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra. (Timing is at 16 BTDC)

Update to this update - mod shroud to include 95% of radiator... seemed better....still temp creeps up to 230F, but if I set idle high (~ 2500) it will bring it down to around 210.....still pushing antifreeze out, about 1 1/2 qt.  Radiator cap inline with output, high location...may need expansion tank to accommodate expansion when hot.
still doesn't make sense to me... 6 blade flex fan, good shroud, mild upgrade on engine...(when I had head off, everything looked ok...no leaking gasket)
I guess I'll get an aux electric fan...and see what happens....yes there is a plate behind water pump.



hello, the center port  is not water, you block it off to keep intake cooler, now the intake will be hotter. the center is an ehx crossover/ heat riser port.

rad cap needs to be a 21 or 18 pound min

lock out timing, @ 16 it will also run better and cooler

should have an 8 blade fan


Last edited by BOSS 429 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:54 am

I went back and looked again at the video in the original post and noticed that your radiator might be installed upside down in the chassis (drain petcock is at top). Maybe this is part of the problem, maybe not.
avatar
DILLIGASDAVE

Posts : 2123
Join date : 2009-08-07
Location : Texas. pronounced "texASS"

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  4604X4 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:19 am

I've read many times that a thermostat is always needed, because it provides some restriction to coolant flow (even when fully opened) which slows the coolant through the heads and allows more "contact time" for the heat to migrate from the head to the coolant.
I don't know if this is true or just racer's tales,
avatar
4604X4

Posts : 108
Join date : 2012-06-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:31 am

Speedwaypj wrote:Appreciate the input from all!
I replaced head gasket, and intakes...noticed old intake gaskets had center water port closed off for manifold. Replacement intake gasket has it opened. Should help.  

As has been addressed by Rich;
I think you misunderstand what those center openings are used for.

Center WATER port in the intake gasket ...?  scratch

Are you referring to the hot exhaust crossover which which HEATS the intake manifold ...?

Is it a HIGH SPEED EFFICIENT water pump on the engine ...?

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  BOSS 429 on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:06 pm

4604X4 wrote:I've read many times that a thermostat is always needed, because it provides some restriction to coolant flow (even when fully opened) which slows the coolant through the heads and allows more "contact time" for the heat to migrate from the head to the coolant.
I don't know if this is true or just racer's tales,




old wifes tale /\,

------------------------


I just did a 500+ 10.7 to1,on  93 for a guy. drove it 30 miles to a cruise ,  90+ out side , idled it about 15 mins stopped, then had to idel it 15  mins thru town about 7 blocks,and stop and go. I think it got to 160 deg. around 1000 rpm.  rad is from 1971, no stat, std water pump,belt driven. locked out timing. no bypass.  he wont ever go back to a stat.  this also has a stock cj fuel pump cam driven,  3 years ago he was pushing the car by the 3rd block, , vapor loc
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:30 pm

4604X4 wrote:I've read many times that a thermostat is always needed, because it provides some restriction to coolant flow (even when fully opened) which slows the coolant through the heads and allows more "contact time" for the heat to migrate from the head to the coolant.
I don't know if this is true or just racer's tales,

Actually ... all which is beneficial would be that the most restriction is at the end of the water flow throughout the engine so there would be a slightly positive pressure within the engine's cooling path.

A thermostat is much more restrictive than is needed.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Mark Miller on Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:10 am

BOSS 429 wrote:
4604X4 wrote:I've read many times that a thermostat is always needed, because it provides some restriction to coolant flow (even when fully opened) which slows the coolant through the heads and allows more "contact time" for the heat to migrate from the head to the coolant.
I don't know if this is true or just racer's tales,




old wifes tale /\,

------------------------


I just did a 500+ 10.7 to1,on  93 for a guy. drove it 30 miles to a cruise ,  90+ out side , idled it about 15 mins stopped, then had to idel it 15  mins thru town about 7 blocks,and stop and go. I think it got to 160 deg. around 1000 rpm.  rad is from 1971, no stat, std water pump,belt driven. locked out timing. no bypass.  he wont ever go back to a stat.  this also has a stock cj fuel pump cam driven,  3 years ago he was pushing the car by the 3rd block, , vapor loc

Interesting,i have a 466 with Aluminum Cj heads with flat top pistons in a 89 Mustang Lx.If i'm driving 50-55 steady cruise no traffic or stop and go mph water temp stays pretty good 180-195.Now stop and go at slower speeds i better turn the electric fan on.I have a 6 blade IIRC mechanical fan with a std. water pump running on 93 octane with octane booster.So you think taking the thermostat out will help keep it run cooler i have a 180 degree thermostat?I thought about going with a dual electric fan but maybe i won't have to!!!!

Mark Miller

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2009-08-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  BOSS 429 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:59 am

yes it WILL,  A stats job is not to cool an engine, its to keep it a min 5 + deg's of what ever its set for


might still need 2 fans if your are not enough cfm, need a min of 4000 with a bbf
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2127
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  zbob on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:21 pm

fwiw my 12.5 sec zephyr stays cool with the following> 4 core champion radiator, flexalite 119 electric pusher fan, locked out distrib at 32 degrees, gutted stat(anotherwords a washer). there is no room for a mech fan.
.....locking out the distrib and jumping from a 116 fan to a 119 did the most. bob

zbob

Posts : 236
Join date : 2009-08-17
Age : 62
Location : mn

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Monday and Tuesday's Runs

Post  Speedwaypj on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 pm

Thanks again all! Sorry - I can't upload pictures....

INTAKE:
Yes, that center opening in the Intake Gasket is for Exhaust....That must be why I had a left over intake set....Plan to change that out....
Speaking of manifold; in one of the forums someone drilled/tapped into the water jacket and connected to the goose neck to help relieve air pocket....so is this area at the rear of the manifold the place to drill/tap? there is a head water jacket that fed the stock manifold in that location.

BURP:
So, since my kids are in their mid 30's I'm not sure if I burped my Cobra correctly (trying to get air pocket out), but I have a very steep driveway and ran it for 20 minutes...did not see it burp.

RADIATOR:
It has two petcocks; and I have the smaller inlet tube 1 1/2" up top... 1 3/4" return at bottom.

OVERFLOW:
I have a catch can; however I do not have an expansion tank which should help with the push out. When the engine cools it does suck the water back into the block. Also I'm wondering about installing the expansion tank on the "Low pressure" side of the radiator.

WATER PUMP:
So, I am running a "High Flow" water pump with standard pulley.

Mechanical Fan:
Thinking of switching out my 6-blade flex fan for a 7 blade flex fan 18 1/4".

AUX FAN:
I'd like to use the ERA's Dual Front Fans. See Pic...not sure of CFM.
Front fans

I'm not sure if consistency is good in this situation.....
I installed a pressure gauge and it starts overflowing around 14-15psi. It was suggested to go to an 18 - 21# cap.

Monday's Run:
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

Tuesday's Run: about the same...
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

But - that motor sounds real good

Speedwaypj

Posts : 22
Join date : 2012-01-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum