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cooling system size for 578 - cracked A460 block after all

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supervel45
ChrisH
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Post  ChrisH September 17th 2022, 11:32 pm

been running a 67 fairlane with a 578 in it. D0OE heads that are ported, victor jr intake,  252/272 700 lift cam, 11:1 CR.
i do not know what the HP is but its at least above 600, anyone's guess from there

it has an electric water pump. two electric fans, a 2 core (1" tube per core) Be Cool radiator. i had been driving the car without a hood as it did not have one that fit. then i could keep it below 200 degrees (180-200) while driving. i put the hood on today, 85 outside and sunny. 195-210 was the temp. i wasn't pushing the car hard.

the radiator and fans came with the car, but i figured this would be enough for this engine. apparently i was wrong. there is a shrouding with the fans.

2 1" cores is a pretty decent radiator it would take 4 5/8" cores to improve on it by 25%.


im a little puzzled, i drove a 501 in a 78 f250 truck, with a belt driven pump and stock radiator and cooling was never an issue. and i drove it pretty hard too.

i dont mind upgrading if that is the answer, just wanting to make certain that others have had similar limitations, and that i just dont have a problem somewhere.

any thoughts?


Last edited by ChrisH on September 27th 2022, 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

ChrisH

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Post  supervel45 September 17th 2022, 11:53 pm

They claim the Lincoln fans pull more air then any after market ones from what I have heard.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225131962635?hash=item346ae9210b:g:osIAAOSwm-hjBTKi



https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/10/Mark8Fan/index.php

Just an Idea. May or May not fit.

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Post  ChrisH September 18th 2022, 12:34 am

thank you, i was unaware of that deal. i will certainly check into it.

also trying to think of a way to check the flow on the water pump.

generically speaking the two fans are certainly moving air, and the radiator i have is decent, so the only part i am unconfirmed on is the water flow (and maybe the cap pressure. i know that is lifting as im slowly losing water even with a proper can)

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Post  stanger68 September 18th 2022, 11:31 am

What block and bore size? I assume the fans are pulling since you said it has a shroud?

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Post  ChrisH September 18th 2022, 1:17 pm

4.625 bore and A460 block.
yes they are pulling
found the setup online it says 2725 scf of air flow. Becool states it should handle 400-1000 hp.

also running glycol, standard antifreeze.

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Post  supervel45 September 18th 2022, 1:26 pm

I hope it's not this? Check post #2.

https://www.460ford.com/threads/why-is-my-bbf-overheating.164503/

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Post  supervel45 September 18th 2022, 2:03 pm

ChrisH wrote:thank you, i was unaware of that deal. i will certainly check into it.

also trying to think of a way to check the flow on the water pump.

generically speaking the two fans are certainly moving air, and the radiator i have is decent, so the only part i am unconfirmed on is the water flow (and maybe the cap pressure. i know that is lifting as im slowly losing water even with a proper can)

Might want to check for a leaking head gasket, just to eliminate it as a cause. With the engine cool and the electric water pump off, run the engine and see if you have any bubbles in the radiator.

You can also find or rent a pressure tester and use that and check for leaking head gaskets and check your cap to.

The above link post #80 had success with the Lincoln fan on his deal.

https://www.toolsource.com/coolant-testers-c-1321_92_94/cooling-system-radiator-pressure-cap-tester-p-54513.html

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Post  ChrisH September 18th 2022, 4:01 pm

thank you for the ideas. i had checked for a head gasket. all seemed well.

so i took the 160 t stat out. ran the pump with the cap off to see what the flow looked like. looked like plenty high enough flow. ran the car with water pump on and no fans until 150 degs. kicked the fans on. took it for a drive and casual driving held 160 more agressive it was 180. also when i came home left the fans and pump on and it dropped from 180 to 150 in a few minutes. faster than before. appears my thermostat is either bad, inaccurate, or a decent restriction.

at this point i will likely leave it out for a while and see how it drives. with the two fans i can keep the water temp where i want it pretty easy.

so i think i at at least discovered part of my problem if not all.

thanks again for ideas.

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Post  supervel45 September 18th 2022, 6:14 pm

ChrisH wrote:thank you for the ideas. i had checked for a head gasket. all seemed well.

so i took the 160 t stat out. ran the pump with the cap off to see what the flow looked like. looked like plenty high enough flow. ran the car with water pump on and no fans until 150 degs. kicked the fans on. took it for a drive and casual driving held 160 more agressive it was 180. also when i came home left the fans and pump on and it dropped from 180 to 150 in a few minutes. faster than before. appears my thermostat is either bad, inaccurate, or a decent restriction.

at this point i will likely leave it out for a while and see how it drives. with the two fans i can keep the water temp where i want it pretty easy.

so i think i at at least discovered part of my problem if not all.

thanks again for ideas.

I used to boil thermostats in a pot of water with a thermometer to check the opening temp. and make sure they are not sticking. You can drill one or a few 1/8" holes in them also to change the characteristics and probably increase the flow. Nice you had about the easiest problem to correct.

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Post  BBFTorino September 23rd 2022, 1:00 am

In my similar setup, I use an electric water pump and a big electric fan. I don't run a thermostat. Instead, I use a restrictor ring with a 5/8" inch hole. It flows more than having a T-Stat....even one that's drilled, but it does'nt flow so much that the coolant passes too quickly.

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Post  ChrisH September 23rd 2022, 11:55 am

thats a good idea, ill likely try the restrictive orifice like you mentioned.

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Post  supervel45 September 23rd 2022, 3:00 pm

So did you ever find the cause or do anything on the gaskets/heads different?

https://www.429-460.com/t28770-head-gasket-failure-after-all

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Post  ChrisH September 23rd 2022, 10:24 pm


supervel45,

well, i have both heads off. only hole six/seven had failed. but no sign of failure on the gasket structure. only hole 6 was ingesting water based on that piston being really clean.
heads and decks are flat to <0.0015"


i am wondering if when the engine went to 205/210 and those steam pocket were trapped in the steam holes under the heads if that lead to the failure. based on the amount of water that was in the oil it wasnt a complete loss of containment but more like it lifted and then reset . i kind of think the heat caused the head gasket issue, and not the other way round. if the gasket caused the overheating it only went to 205 and it climbed there, it didnt shoot up. and once the t stat was removed it held temp fine.

so at this point i guess i will clean everything up, brake clean the gasket surfaces well and bolt it back together.

my only question was which head gasket to use. but i dont think i have a good enough surface to use MLS cometics. the heads have that usual cutting mark in them from the surfacer and i think that shouldn't be there for MLS. So i will just use another set of 1028s.

i will fit an orifice though to the t state hole. play with a few sizes and see what works best.


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Post  supervel45 September 23rd 2022, 11:11 pm

I brought a couple of sets of PI heads in to get fluxed and both sets had small cracks in a bowl. I wonder on #6 if it could be something like that? These were ported  and probably were thin in area's. Are your CJ's ported? I may be shooting in the dark but, thought I'd throw it out there. The MLS does not sound good for the reason you stated. I would look into your other question/questions deeper also before I put it all back together.

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Post  ChrisH September 23rd 2022, 11:36 pm

supervel45 wrote:I brought a couple of sets of PI heads in to get fluxed and both sets had small cracks in a bowl. I wonder on #6 if it could be something like that? These were ported  and probably were thin in area's. Are your CJ's ported? I may be shooting in the dark but, thought I'd throw it out there. The MLS does not sound good for the reason you stated. I would look into your other question/questions deeper also before I put it all back together.

the one thing that made me dismiss a crack in the bowl or chamber was the pressure test. rockers were off so all valves were closed. this takes the bowls out of the question. for a crack in the chamber there would have to be cracks in both chambers because i pressured hole 7 and coolant blew out of hole 6. so these two cylinders are "talking" to each other in some manner.

the head gasket is one place this can happen and a crack on just the right spot in the siameased cylinder walls (maybe) could cause this. but even then i am not sure about this. it seems like one the air pressure from chamber 7 escapes into the water cavity it would be impossible for it to pressure into chamber 6 as the coolant system was open to the atm at the time. the only place where i can come up with that allows the results of this test is the head gasket.

but i agree with you, a max bore A block at 4.625 and moderately ported D0OE heads leaves some exposure for having water enter the combustion cycle.


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Post  ChrisH September 23rd 2022, 11:39 pm

i did go ahead and drill the steam holes that needed in the heads tonight. so at least that part is now corrected.

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Post  Mark Miller September 23rd 2022, 11:45 pm

I have the Contour V-6 Dual Electric Fan Setup on my 89 Mustang with a 466 BBF!!I know Randy Seward hacooling system size for 578 - cracked A460 block after all Img_2211
s a Twin Turbo SBF and has driven across the USA and back with the same setup!!

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Post  supervel45 September 24th 2022, 1:44 am

ChrisH wrote:
supervel45 wrote:I brought a couple of sets of PI heads in to get fluxed and both sets had small cracks in a bowl. I wonder on #6 if it could be something like that? These were ported  and probably were thin in area's. Are your CJ's ported? I may be shooting in the dark but, thought I'd throw it out there. The MLS does not sound good for the reason you stated. I would look into your other question/questions deeper also before I put it all back together.

the one thing that made me dismiss a crack in the bowl or chamber was the pressure test. rockers were off so all valves were closed. this takes the bowls out of the question. for a crack in the chamber there would have to be cracks in both chambers because i pressured hole 7 and coolant blew out of hole 6. so these two cylinders are "talking" to each other in some manner.

the head gasket is one place this can happen and a crack on just the right spot in the siameased cylinder walls (maybe) could cause this. but even then i am not sure about this. it seems like one the air pressure from chamber 7 escapes into the water cavity it would be impossible for it to pressure into chamber 6 as the coolant system was open to the atm at the time. the only place where i can come up with that allows the results of this test is the head gasket.

but i agree with you, a max bore A block at 4.625 and moderately ported D0OE heads leaves some exposure for having water enter the combustion cycle.


The water in #7 puzzled me. I threw out the cracked bowl as you said piston #6 was clean.

This lead me to believe maybe it was getting water longer and maybe opening up when it was hot.

Sometimes you can have two problems at the same time overlapping.

I just did not want you to put in all back together, and the small chance it could be the above I thought I would mention it.

Hopefully it goes well.

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Post  ChrisH September 26th 2022, 11:41 pm

worst possible answer.

gasket didnt blow, the block cracked radially half way down the hole. so there is a crack between the two cylinders, two inches down.
explains why the gaskets looks perfect.

This is a motorsport block so the cylinders are siamesed. its also on the front and back of the bore, so non load bearing.

dont know the cause, i suspect a void in the cast. i will drill the area to find out, but at this point, everything has to come out and get sleeves put in it. the bore was out to 4.625.
i bought the block finished and ready to go (machining wise). so maybe the seller knew something, who knows.

i will say, i wasnt making enough power to do this (~650-700hp)

well, i think the fairlane is down for the year. have a few options, but with parts back logged and machinist time this isn't getting fixed before it gets too cold.
well at least i didnt waste a set of gaskets.






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Post  Mark Miller September 27th 2022, 10:41 pm

ChrisH wrote:worst possible answer.

gasket didnt blow, the block cracked radially half way down the hole. so there is a crack between the two cylinders,  two inches down.
explains why the gaskets looks perfect.

This is a motorsport block so the cylinders are siamesed. its also on the front and back of the bore, so non load bearing.

dont know the cause, i suspect a void in the cast. i will drill the area to find out, but at this point, everything has to come out and get sleeves put in it. the bore was out to 4.625.
i bought the block finished and ready to go (machining wise). so maybe the seller knew something, who knows.

i will say, i wasnt making enough power to do this (~650-700hp)

well, i think the fairlane is down for the year. have a few options, but with parts back logged and machinist time this isn't getting fixed before it gets too cold.
well at least i didnt waste a set of gaskets.






That sucks that the block cracked sorry to hear!!

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Post  ChrisH September 27th 2022, 11:22 pm

yeah, its really a bit of a black eye for the SVO block. i know there are thousands that have taken heavy punishment, but man this failure was just due to a junk casting in this case(unless some one has other theories).

i considered it might have been due the head studs somehow but its at least an inch lower than the studs go in. the block is bolted in with bushing style engine mounts on the side but the then hard mounted with two "tie rods" from the heads to the DOM hoops that tie to the frame. so the fore and aft is handled by the engine mounts but the rotational load is handled by the tie rods mounted to the heads. so i dont se how this could have loaded the block and stressed it like this.

i nearly got the engine out tonight so once pulled i'll see what the story looks like inside (main webs and such)

but in the end this thing was close to 700hp  at best and really had not been driven hard (yet). so just a failed part, but a big failed part. talked to the machinist today so if i see what im expecting inside we will see about sleeves. about the best answer going right now for blocks, basically fix what you got.

tried to insert a picture. see if it works

easier to see if you click see full size

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Post  supervel45 September 28th 2022, 12:11 am

Sorry to hear about your block.

Yes you picture posted and I can see the defect when it is enlarged.

The piston looks brand new.  Hopefully a sleeve or two and you will be good to go.

I would do a thorough sonic test of all 8 myself while it's out, even if it was tested before.

Also I don't think it has anything to do with engine mounts or head studs.

Like you said max bore and a bad spot was found would be my take.

Not that I am suggesting this by any means but while on the subject has any one ever used this product?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-35500

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Post  Lem Evans September 28th 2022, 12:19 pm

Damn bad luck. Time for a sleeve. It'll not need 8 sleeves. Maybe just one.

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Post  ChrisH September 28th 2022, 1:59 pm

yeah, i must have got last block off the line before thanksgiving holiday or something.

the crack did go through to the other side so its two sleeves at least.

Lem, this isnt the block i have waiting for all the parts you are sourcing for me, that one is still fine and i will have continue building it for this car. that 4.560 bore you specked sounds really good now btw.
This current engine will likely end up in a 64 F350 i have, so i will certainly get it running again.



my concern was i had done something in assembly or fabrication that had caused this, but i think this is one of those rare deals where i am not the problem (its rare this is the case).
But i do accept i purchased a block that was 4.625 bore, and that is always edgy.

so i will spend sometime with the sonic tester and see how many sleeves i need.

part of the deal, everyone has had these type things,

My only ask is if any one has insight to this mechanism of failure. mainly if they think it could be something done on my end. reason being, i don't want to repeat the issue
items of note:
arp head stubs torqued to 130-135. iron block/iron heads
engine mounts on sides with bushing/engine mounts on front of heads tied to DOM hoops/frame. so front is rigid mount but sides have some give for vibration.
engine was running 205-210°F

thank you all for the help and insight

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Post  Lem Evans September 28th 2022, 4:17 pm

I doubt is anything you did that caused it

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