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Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?

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rmcomprandy
supervel45
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 22nd 2023, 3:50 am

supervel45 wrote:My Stock Ford OEM Plate Cavity Depth Measured .125".

The Diameter at the Bottom of the Tapered Cavity is 4.955", as close as I could measure.


Trying to convert that .125 to mm 3.175mm and I measured from center of shaft to case housing at around 3mm so expect it would clear
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 22nd 2023, 7:53 pm

supervel45 wrote:My Stock Ford OEM Plate Cavity Depth Measured .125".

The Diameter at the Bottom of the Tapered Cavity is 4.955", as close as I could measure.



Well never got a phone back from flowkooler - cant fill the on-line form it fails - tried call them this morning 3 x times phone hangs up, and both emails address I have for them both rejected.

Rob
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Post  supervel45 June 22nd 2023, 10:19 pm

As long as the large outer part of the impeller does not rub the Edge of the Indention or any other part of it, of your old plate I think you will be good to go. If it does you can double gasket it, and likely it will clear. Same with the Shaft. As You will see in the below Link all FlowKooler water pumps are not the same Impeller over Time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334694709940

That could have also been why they included two gaskets, for tolerance stack of plates, impellers and build quality?

I don't know why FlowKooler changed the color of the impeller either, did they change the diameter or just run out of Blue Anodize?

One thing I noticed on these Edelbrok CVR CVF Phantom backing plates is there is Almost No information on them or images available.

I would bet if they sent you a plate with the old water pump it is likely a stock or factory reproduction.

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 23rd 2023, 8:50 am

supervel45 wrote:As long as the large outer part of the impeller does not rub the Edge of the Indention or any other part of it, of your old plate I think you will be good to go. If it does you can double gasket it, and likely it will clear. Same with the Shaft. As You will see in the below Link all FlowKooler water pumps are not the same Impeller over Time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334694709940

That could have also been why they included two gaskets, for tolerance stack of plates, impellers and build quality?

I don't know why FlowKooler changed the color of the impeller either, did they change the diameter or just run out of Blue Anodize?

One thing I noticed on these Edelbrok CVR CVF Phantom backing plates is there is Almost No information on them or images available.

I would bet if they sent you a plate with the old water pump it is likely a stock or factory reproduction.

That ebay link looks like a home made pump with that plate vs the pump I now have...

I think from memory the plate does look like the typical stamped units you see around... Ill see if can get to the pump this weekend...

R
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Post  supervel45 June 23rd 2023, 9:29 am

My Point of the Ebay FlowKooler pump was the diameter of the impeller wheel is larger then the new machined/billet wheel. If you look closely it is likely one of the very early FlowKooler units as he has the Box and the Impeller behind the wheel looks different then stock but it's hard to say.

It Also has a 1651 Part number Stamped on the Very Old Label Looking Box with Their Old Phone Number and it looks like a Jan. 1998 Revision Date on the bottom right hand of the White instructions sheet and May 1, 1995 on the Yellow Warranty Page.

You Could Also be Correct. I don't know the diameter of the old wheel but, thought the edge would be closer to the edge of the depression of the backing plate as it is larger to Scale of the Housing then the New Wheel. It's just a guess as to the reason for 3 gaskets.

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 23rd 2023, 9:04 pm

supervel45 wrote:My Point of the Ebay FlowKooler pump was the diameter of the impeller wheel is larger then the new machined/billet wheel. If you look closely it is likely one of the very early FlowKooler units as he has the Box and the Impeller behind the wheel looks different then stock but it's hard to say.

It Also has a 1651 Part number Stamped on the Very Old Label Looking Box with Their Old Phone Number and it looks like a Jan. 1998 Revision Date on the bottom right hand of the White instructions sheet and May 1, 1995 on the Yellow Warranty Page.

You Could Also be Correct. I don't know the diameter of the old wheel but, thought the edge would be closer to the edge of the depression of the backing plate as it is larger to Scale of the Housing then the New Wheel. It's just a guess as to the reason for 3 gaskets.

Yes ok, just need to get my pump off and see what plate I have , the other thing is I don't mind ordering like the Ford racing plate with recess, but how would I know if the one I have is simply not identical as they do t give any specific dimensions... I saw a totally different ford OEM old style plate that looked the same
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 11:15 am

Well..... Ok some update

#CVF Ford 460 Waterpump and Backing plate vs #FlowKooler 1651 waterpump

# Reason for update is if anyone else if to search they mind find this of use ?!!

1 - My thermostat was the 160F HI-FLOW unit (my original comments said 180F)

Ok so pump off and you can see the difference in the "Flowkooler 1651" waterpump impeller VS the CVF supplied "Edelbrock style" and backing plate unit.

Now I've only taken it off and quick crude look but from a quick visual....

1. The CVF supplied pump impeller if level with the cast body of the pump, vs the FlowKooler 1651 impeller and shaft protrudes past the cast level

2. The Backing plate supplied with the CVF Pump has an recess indentation just under 4" and the impeller is just over the 3. 1/2" - not sure if indentation is even needed because the impeller is level with cast ?

3. The 1651 impeller is larger (around 4") than the recesses on the pressed plate so will need to get a different plate.


So question is now what backing plate do I need, the CVF recess not large enough, and none of the plates I can see on-line
give any information and FlowKooler fail to respond, and all email attempts fail.

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 11:17 am

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Well..... Ok some update

#CVF Ford 460 Waterpump and Backing plate vs #FlowKooler 1651 waterpump

# Reason for update is if anyone else if to search they mind find this of use ?!!  

1 - My thermostat was the 160F HI-FLOW unit (my original comments said 180F)

Ok so pump off and you can see the difference in the "Flowkooler 1651" waterpump impeller VS the CVF supplied "Edelbrock style" and backing plate unit.

Now I've only taken it off and quick crude look but from a quick visual....

1. The CVF supplied pump impeller if level with the cast body of the pump, vs the FlowKooler 1651 impeller and shaft protrudes past the cast level

2. The Backing plate supplied with the CVF Pump has an recess indentation just under 4" and the impeller is just over the 3. 1/2" - not sure if indentation is even needed because the impeller is level with cast ?

3. The 1651 impeller is larger (around 4") than the recesses on the pressed plate so will need to get a different plate.


So question is now what backing plate do I need, the CVF recess not large enough, and none of the plates I can see on-line
give any information and FlowKooler fail to respond, and all email attempts fail.

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Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2014




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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 11:19 am

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:
bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Well..... Ok some update

#CVF Ford 460 Waterpump and Backing plate vs #FlowKooler 1651 waterpump

# Reason for update is if anyone else if to search they mind find this of use ?!!  

1 - My thermostat was the 160F HI-FLOW unit (my original comments said 180F)

Ok so pump off and you can see the difference in the "Flowkooler 1651" waterpump impeller VS the CVF supplied "Edelbrock style" and backing plate unit.

Now I've only taken it off and quick crude look but from a quick visual....

1. The CVF supplied pump impeller if level with the cast body of the pump, vs the FlowKooler 1651 impeller and shaft protrudes past the cast level

2. The Backing plate supplied with the CVF Pump has an recess indentation just under 4" and the impeller is just over the 3. 1/2" - not sure if indentation is even needed because the impeller is level with cast ?

3. The 1651 impeller is larger (around 4") than the recesses on the pressed plate so will need to get a different plate.


So question is now what backing plate do I need, the CVF recess not large enough, and none of the plates I can see on-line
give any information and FlowKooler fail to respond, and all email attempts fail.

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Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2013
Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2014




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Post  rmcomprandy June 25th 2023, 3:20 pm

You are making this much more difficult than what it is ...

As I have told you here previously ... any of the 3 plates available will work well with the FlowKooler pump as long as the pump impeller is level or lower than the pump gasket face; they use a stock Ford pump housing for their pump. The gasket allows enough clearance and using silicone gasket maker here is a No-No. The gasket between the pump and plate and, the gasket between the plate and front cover are DIFFERENT.

I have only built "hundreds" of these big block Ford engines and been down this road several times but, you should do whatever you are happy with.

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Post  supervel45 June 25th 2023, 5:08 pm

If it were me and I wanted/needed a different plate from the one you have now for the job, I would just order this one.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-8501-460bp?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9-kBhCHARIsAHpBjHheEpQHJjZ6IoH5MTrii97lt2fWBpYnMXdQe280YyopyiMVbaOFk_EaArPOEALw_wcB

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 5:35 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:You are making this much more difficult than what it is ...

As I have told you here previously ... any of the 3 plates available will work well with the FlowKooler pump as long as the pump impeller is level or lower than the pump gasket face; they use a stock Ford pump housing for their pump. The gasket allows enough clearance and using silicone gasket maker here is a No-No.  The gasket between the pump and plate and, the gasket between the plate and front cover are DIFFERENT.

I have only built "hundreds" of these big block Ford engines and been down this road several times but, you should do whatever you are happy with.


Yes but when I have been searching on summit for example I could only fine 1 (stamped) vs the billet flat style ones and ordering form OZ, costs etc wanted to make sure that its the one I should be ordering just needed to know or confirm part numbers....

but thanks again for advice...

Rob
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 5:36 pm

supervel45 wrote:If it were me and I wanted/needed a different plate from the one you have now for the job, I would just order this one.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-8501-460bp?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9-kBhCHARIsAHpBjHheEpQHJjZ6IoH5MTrii97lt2fWBpYnMXdQe280YyopyiMVbaOFk_EaArPOEALw_wcB


OK thats the same and only 1 I can see for ford (apart from the other style that look like for a Electric unit) - so will simply order this.....!

Just ordered it from AMAZON - $70 AUS - Delivered vs Summit $116 (same part)

Cheers!

R
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Post  supervel45 June 25th 2023, 6:14 pm

That exchange rate and shipping Down Under is a bitch. You'all got our BBF cams and it's 116US ransome to get them back I noticed. Crying or Very sad

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223730357414

All for what should be a 75 dollar pump and a 10 dollar plate. Sad State of Affairs, our money that is. Evil or Very Mad

Hopefully all this takes care of your overheating issue.

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Post  supervel45 June 25th 2023, 7:25 pm

When You get that Ford FRPP plate in Could you Please post pictures of it, and The CVF plate, with a Ruler or Caliper across the Cavity, and the whole Plate in the Frame, of both in the same Post side by side.

That may be of great help to others in the Future who run into this Issue.

Thanks in Advance


Last edited by supervel45 on June 25th 2023, 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb June 25th 2023, 7:33 pm

supervel45 wrote:When You get that Ford FRPP plate in Could you Please post pictures of it and The CVF plate with a Ruler or Caliper across the Cavity of both in the same Post side by side.

That may be of great help to others in the Future who run into this Issue.

Thanks in Advance

sure , just hope they are not the same, the cavity looks larger on the one on order thou.
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Post  supervel45 June 25th 2023, 7:39 pm

My Money is on 4.955" and .125". Wink

PS: Put some Anti-Seize or Grease on the Bolts. Some guys even replace them with Hardware store Grade 8 Bolts to be on the Safe Side.

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Post  Dave De June 26th 2023, 6:50 am

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Well..... Ok some update

#CVF Ford 460 Waterpump and Backing plate vs #FlowKooler 1651 waterpump

# Reason for update is if anyone else if to search they mind find this of use ?!!  

1 - My thermostat was the 160F HI-FLOW unit (my original comments said 180F)

Ok so pump off and you can see the difference in the "Flowkooler 1651" waterpump impeller VS the CVF supplied "Edelbrock style" and backing plate unit.

Now I've only taken it off and quick crude look but from a quick visual....

1. The CVF supplied pump impeller if level with the cast body of the pump, vs the FlowKooler 1651 impeller and shaft protrudes past the cast level

2. The Backing plate supplied with the CVF Pump has an recess indentation just under 4" and the impeller is just over the 3. 1/2" - not sure if indentation is even needed because the impeller is level with cast ?

3. The 1651 impeller is larger (around 4") than the recesses on the pressed plate so will need to get a different plate.


So question is now what backing plate do I need, the CVF recess not large enough, and none of the plates I can see on-line
give any information and FlowKooler fail to respond, and all email attempts fail.

Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2012
Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2013
Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2014





There is a substantial difference in performance with an impeller diameter change. Centrifugal pumps follow affinity laws for flow performance. Differential pressure will change by the square of the diameter and flow will change linearly.
Going to 4" over the 3.5" will yield 30% more pressure and 14% more flow. But the CVF impeller has radial vanes where the Kooler pump has curved. The Kooler pump impeller will yield lower performance when the impellers are equal diameter. I am going to estimate the Kooler pump will be better by half the performance difference from the affinity laws.
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Post  rmcomprandy June 26th 2023, 10:59 am

Dave De wrote:
bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Well..... Ok some update

#CVF Ford 460 Waterpump and Backing plate vs #FlowKooler 1651 waterpump

# Reason for update is if anyone else if to search they mind find this of use ?!!  

1 - My thermostat was the 160F HI-FLOW unit (my original comments said 180F)

Ok so pump off and you can see the difference in the "Flowkooler 1651" waterpump impeller VS the CVF supplied "Edelbrock style" and backing plate unit.

Now I've only taken it off and quick crude look but from a quick visual....

1. The CVF supplied pump impeller if level with the cast body of the pump, vs the FlowKooler 1651 impeller and shaft protrudes past the cast level

2. The Backing plate supplied with the CVF Pump has an recess indentation just under 4" and the impeller is just over the 3. 1/2" - not sure if indentation is even needed because the impeller is level with cast ?

3. The 1651 impeller is larger (around 4") than the recesses on the pressed plate so will need to get a different plate.


So question is now what backing plate do I need, the CVF recess not large enough, and none of the plates I can see on-line
give any information and FlowKooler fail to respond, and all email attempts fail.

Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2012
Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2013
Still overheating - Water Pump bypass hose?  - Page 3 Pxl_2014





There is a substantial difference in performance with an impeller diameter change. Centrifugal pumps follow affinity laws for flow performance. Differential pressure will change by the square of the diameter and flow will change linearly.
Going to 4" over the 3.5" will yield 30% more pressure and 14% more flow. But the CVF impeller has radial vanes where the Kooler pump has curved. The Kooler pump impeller will yield lower performance when the impellers are equal diameter. I am going to estimate the Kooler pump will be better by half the performance difference from the affinity laws.

Exactly correct but, you told it backwards. The FlowKooler impeller has 16 straight vanes; the other pump photo shows the curved vanes giving a greatly different vector for high RPM running.

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb July 2nd 2023, 1:16 am

Sealer for Waterpump gaskets & Bolts

Without over complicating things (why would I do that), waiting for the backing plate be shipped to the nanny state - OZ ..

I already have some Permitex 80017 - Form-a-gasket - liquid sealant - you know that black stuff if it touching anything its going to stick.

The general Flowkooler generic sheet that came with pump says use 80018 or equivant, from what I can see this is the same as 80017, just larger container.

Reading this permitex, I think it was saying it does not set like silicon , and permitex sell a blue waterpump gasket maker (looks like people use it instead of using with gaskets?)

So stick with the stuff I have Permitex 80017 or something different - dont mind buying something else, far better than pulling front of car apart to get the pump off....

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Post  Dave De July 2nd 2023, 11:30 am

New surfaces dont need sealant but you could use silicone on the one side of the gasket for protection. Aviation "Form A Gasket" is great for the threaded holes that go into the water jacket.
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Post  RayDav July 4th 2023, 1:18 pm

[quote="bigblockfordfxstb"]Sealer for Waterpump gaskets & Bolts[quote]

I use grease and stainless bolts.

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb July 11th 2023, 8:55 pm

well well well, look what we have here...


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Post  Dave De July 21st 2023, 8:59 pm

Give us an update on the new pump performance.
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb July 21st 2023, 9:45 pm

been slack dealing with daily grind ... pump is fitted, just need to get it all back together, with transcooler should it be mounted against the rad or ok to have a gap between ie 2 inch?? normally they are together I guess for sir flow? while Idoi g fitting can adjust
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