Std or HV oil pump?

466 10.6:1 street/strip motor with a solid roller. Shift at 6500. It has a rear sump truck pan, windage tray and crank scraper. It had a std volume pump in it when I took it apart. It ate 2 lifters thats why its being replaced. It ran fine and had decent oil pressure.

Also it has tapered push rods. What side goes up?

Hi Volume all the way. Make sure it's always lubed up!

If what you had was good then bigger MUST be better ... RIGHT, you bet...!

That's an awfully assinine theory.

The thinner side of the pushrod goes UP toward the rocker arm UNLESS it interferes with the lifter...

It never ceases to amaze me how many people attempt to crutch sloppy clearances with a big pump instead of getting things right in the first place.

OK im going with a std. volume pump.

The hole is what is smaller on one side of the pushrod not the pushrod itself. I guess the smaller side would go up as well? I dont understand the whole oiling system too well yet lol.

Why not run an HV pump?

Seems the ramifications of using an HV pump unnecessarily are far less dire than the ramifications of using a standard volume pump when an HV is needed.

Greg_P wrote:Why not run an HV pump?

Seems the ramifications of using an HV pump unnecessarily are far less dire than the ramifications of using a standard volume pump when an HV is needed.

Simply because if you read the entire original post, it already was run with a standard volume oil pump in it; "It ran fine and had decent oil pressure".

There really is no need take the chance of as you say "ramifications" to add extra wear to the distributer gears, increase the load which the distributor roll pill is required to carry and maybe pump the pan low of oil level.
Especially when what was already there, " ran fine and had decent oil pressure".

In other words - "If it ain't broke - don't fix it...!"

Randy,

A question for you,have you ever did a back to back dyno test with a high volume pump and a standard pump?The only reason i ask is a buddy of mine runs NMRA Pure Street and was going to try a standard pump for next season.He has been running a high volume pump but has heard there could be a horsepower increase with the standard pump.He does spin this motor to over 8,000 rpm it's a 306" SBF.

Thanks Mark.

Since this is a little ol' 466 pump gas street/strip engine with several oil control upgrades already added in the engine (windage tray, scraper, etc), and since the standard volume pump performed acceptably, I agree that the standard volume pump will continue to serve this engine just fine.

That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with providing the availability of plenty of oil in a steet/strip engine whose job is not to extract every last iota of horsepower but is to provide the hot rod enthusiast with years of faithful and reliable engine life. Under these circumstances, an HV oil pump would not be a bad move....it's just not mandatory in this build.

Mark Miller wrote:Randy,

A question for you,have you ever did a back to back dyno test with a high volume pump and a standard pump?

Thanks Mark.

Randy may answer this question, or course, but I just wanted to point out a recent oil pump comparo that was performed by Stever Brule of Westech Engine Dyno Service. In short, they took a 377 SBC and tried 4 different oil pumps on it, including a big-ass BBC oil pump on the 377 SBC engine (an old SBC drag racer trick). The difference in HP was negligible in the world of most hot rod enthusiasts, and the more notable difference was how playing with different pumps could enable you to play with different oils and thereby affect flow vs. pressure and minimize hp loss. In other words, a HV pump would allow you to use a thinner oil and move more oil through the system while maintaining the pressure of a Std volume pump which needed a higher vicosity oil. Oil does so much more than lubricate your engine and so this is a very important point to consider, since it also cleans, cools, acts as a seal, etc. And, high pressure equates to quicker oil temp rise than does lower pressure with more volume moving through the system...but ironically, in the typical hot rod enthusiast engine this temperature concern is not as significant either.

Lastly in this oil pump comparo, the difference in hp from the std volume SBC pump and the gargantuan BBC pump (installed in the SBC engine) was a measely 4.1 hp, and that was with the BBC pump moving the most oil through the SBC engine (more than the SBC pumps)! All pumps cost less than 5 hp and varied depending mostly on final setup (playing with pressure versus oil viscosity) than anything else.

I'm all for gaining hp wherever and whenever absolutely necessary, but taking it from my oiling system is the very, very last place I will go to get it, as there are plenty of other places to seek hp gains before compromising an oiling system or even just cutting back on an oiling sytem that may otherwise save a performance enthusiast's engine in a dire need of lubrication somewhere in its life. A full-out competition engine would be another story, of course, but even in the world of bracket racing it doesn't necessarily apply in my view.

Paul

Paul, I tend to view this topic from a slightly different angle. Please don't think I'm being argumentative here, as I'm trying to learn something. And I'm not concerned with squeezing out that last h.p. either.

Let's look at the theoretical h.p. numbers associated with driving the oil pump. If the h.p. DIFFERENCE between the standard pump and the big one is 4.1 h.p., and ALL pumps cost less than 5 h.p., can we logically assume (maybe this is a stretch) that the system with the big pump is using a total of 8 h.p. or so? If that number is even close, then let me pose a question: Let's say you're building a riding lawnmower from scratch. It has an 8 h.p. Briggs & Stratton engine. Would you try to send that 8 h.p. through a drive shaft the size of the one that drives our oil pumps? Worse yet, would you couple that shaft using a roll pin like the one in our distributor gears?

I ask the question because the distributor/oil pump drive sytem is already taxed plenty. I'm reluctant to put greater strains on that system, especially after spending countless dollars and hours (roller lifters, roller rockers, roller bearings, oiling mods to the block, etc.) in an effort to make the engine need a LOWER VOLUME of oil.

Now, to my way of thinking, I want the weak link in this drive system to be the pin in the distributor gear.....and I guess I couldn't change that if I tried.....and I wouldn't. That's because a failed pin in the distributor gear will likely make the engine simply stop running. A failed pump shaft will allow the engine to run without oil pressure, and a failed pin in the cam snout will likely make expensive shrapnel. So.........

Having had great success with stock pumps in drag race engines, I wonder at what point does the need (or desire) for greater oil flow begin to outweigh the hazards associated with DOUBLING the load on the drive system? I guess as long as I use a wet sump system I'll be looking for that answer. I guess you're exactly the right guy to offer me some additional input. What do you think?

Mark Miller wrote:Randy,

A question for you, have you ever did a back to back dyno test with a high volume pump and a standard pump?The only reason i ask is a buddy of mine runs NMRA Pure Street and was going to try a standard pump for next season.He has been running a high volume pump but has heard there could be a horsepower increase with the standard pump.He does spin this motor to over 8,000 rpm it's a 306" SBF.

Thanks Mark.

I would say there is not much flywheel horsepower difference if the oil is controlled.
Extra oil throw-off and more oil bypassing through the bypass valve are the largest detriment to more volume than is needed.
1. More oil throw-off eats power however, IF the system is designed so the oil throw-off is controlled then that power difference is negligable.
2. More oil going through the bypas will get airated and heated FASTER than if the bypass never opened. Again, most engines won't know the difference but 24 hour/Endurance racing engines will show those signs rather easily as well as an engine which runs on a freeway for hours with continuous bypass oil flow.
3. The extra load on the distributor gear, attaching roll pin and expecially the forward wear surfaces of the camshaft/thrust plate union CAN cause faster and more than normal wear times.

To best way say it; an oil pump which has to much volume will be detrimental to almost everything however, it is LESS detrimental than not having enough volume.
Typical of a drag race mentality is that POWER is all that matters.

SO, taking EVERYTHING into consideration, it is best to get the volume of the oil pump exactly correct for the job it has to do.
Getting enough oil to do the job at hand with absolutely NO oil going through a bypass with that pump sized exactly correct for the job, is untimately the best but, finding that point is usually not an easy task.
With many of my racing marine, racing endurance or tight clearance highway builds, a STANDARD volume oil pump is too big. Now, it took several stabs at it to get the pump, (for THAT specific engine and application), at or only slightly larger than is necessary.

Most people take the oil pump sizing for granted and, unlike the automotive designers and appplication engineers, never need to meet the task of running an engine in a vehicle pulling an overweight trailer accross the desert at 120°F on a black-top road which is well over 150° and have NO oil issues, do to the oil pump sizing, what-so-ever at the end of the testing.
I've been there along with developing gasoline electric fuel pumps for fuel injection which must still pump airated gasoline at 140°F. This is not 1960 anymore.

Well said.

Randy and Paul,

Thanks for the great information the class my buddy runs in has a lot of restrictions.That's why he's looking into different ways to pick up power that are legal.

Thanks Mark.

maverick wrote:Paul, I tend to view this topic from a slightly different angle. Please don't think I'm being argumentative here, as I'm trying to learn something. And I'm not concerned with squeezing out that last h.p. either.

No worries! We are on a discussion board, and so I'd think that all ideas are welcome. As I often say, "there is more than one way to skin a cat" and we all know that the internet can bring so many more people together who can offer their personal insights and experiences. I still spend plenty of time on these boards reading out of wanting to learn as I do offering advice and suggestions.

maverick wrote:Let's look at the theoretical h.p. numbers associated with driving the oil pump. If the h.p. DIFFERENCE between the standard pump and the big one is 4.1 h.p., and ALL pumps cost less than 5 h.p., can we logically assume (maybe this is a stretch) that the system with the big pump is using a total of 8 h.p. or so?

No, we cannot assume this because it was never shown in the SBC oil pump excercise that "ALL pumps cost less than 5 h.p." The difference in hp loss between all the pumps tested is less than 5 hp, but this does not establish a baseline of how much hp the SBC std volume pump actually absorbs in and of itself because the engine was not tested with the std volume pump on/std volume pump removed (the engine was not run without an oil pump installed so as to determine how much hp a std volume oil pump actually absorbs). The study simply showed that different pumps absorb different amounts of hp...and showed how tuning oiling systems as a whole could minimize any anticipated absorption from a physically larger oil pump.

maverick wrote:...let me pose a question: Let's say you're building a riding lawnmower from scratch. It has an 8 h.p. Briggs & Stratton engine. Would you try to send that 8 h.p. through a drive shaft the size of the one that drives our oil pumps?

That's not a comparison at all. You are asking a 5/16 hex oil pump shaft to support the load of a ~600 pound riding mower, not just turn a little ol' oil pump that is cause for far less load than a 600 pound riding mower. Completely different amounts of torque required, if you ask me. Although I couldn't tell you the amount of torque it takes to turn the oil pump, consider this: if you have ever primed an oil pump with a drill then you can imagine the loads. The drill motor turns the oil pump, but do you really think you could use a hand-operated electric drill motor to propel a riding mower?

maverick wrote:Worse yet, would you couple that (8 hp riding mower's) shaft using a roll pin like the one in our distributor gears?

Think about it this way: If the little 1/8-inch roll pin in our 460 engines can support the loads of the oil pump drive mechanism, why wouldn't a 5/16-inch hexagonal shaft? (To be thorough, the loads do differ between these two parts since the roll pin experiences a shear loads, while the shaft experiences torque loads....but you get the idea.)

maverick wrote:I ask the question because the distributor/oil pump drive sytem is already taxed plenty. I'm reluctant to put greater strains on that system, especially after spending countless dollars and hours (roller lifters, roller rockers, roller bearings, oiling mods to the block, etc.) in an effort to make the engine need a LOWER VOLUME of oil.

The difference in strain is neglibile. It is generally believed that the waterpumps in these classic engines take about 10 hp to drive. In other words, 10 hp might be gained in the upper rpm range if the fan belt is removed or an electric waterpump is used. Ever hold a waterpump in your hand and turn it?

In regards to all the friction reducing efforts you have pointed to including roller bearings, roller lifters, etc. This sounds very max effort and/or drag race deal where you run 1320 feet and shut the engine down. Some applications may not call for the HV pump, others may. Then there's personal preference. In my original post, I stated, "there is absolutely nothing wrong with providing the availability of plenty of oil in a steet/strip engine whose job is not to extract every last iota of horsepower but is to provide the hot rod enthusiast with years of faithful and reliable engine life." A hot rod enthusiast that has a 550 hp engine is not necessarily looking for the very last hp, and certainly not wanting ~5 hp at the cost of reliability. Actually there are times where I may use a std volume pump in a 550 hp engine, but definitely not all cases...depends on the application, etc. And then there are high performance racing engines where a reassured oil supply in the form of an HV pump is preferred. Again not every time, of course. I can't even guess the countless number of times people call me for the Stage 2 Kit and after asking them a few question I steer them away and towards a lesser pump because the Stage 2 Kit is way too much oiling for their application.

maverick wrote:Now, to my way of thinking, I want the weak link in this drive system to be the pin in the distributor gear.....and I guess I couldn't change that if I tried.....and I wouldn't. That's because a failed pin in the distributor gear will likely make the engine simply stop running. A failed pump shaft will allow the engine to run without oil pressure, and a failed pin in the cam snout will likely make expensive shrapnel. So.........

Lol I think we can both agree that if you are breaking oil pump shafts instead of shearing distributor pins, then you've got bigger engine problems.

maverick wrote:Having had great success with stock pumps in drag race engines, I wonder at what point does the need (or desire) for greater oil flow begin to outweigh the hazards associated with DOUBLING the load on the drive system? I guess as long as I use a wet sump system I'll be looking for that answer. I guess you're exactly the right guy to offer me some additional input. What do you think?

Taking a 460 and installing an oil pump that is reported to have 25% increased flow capability does not double the load of the system, nor does it automatically flow 25% more oil accross the board. All else being the same (same exact engine, same clearances, same oil, same bypass pressure, etc) an HV pump will bypass more oil (generally)...how much it is bypassing is dependent on rpm and a few other factors. But using the HV pump may allow you set up your combo differently and then run a thinner lubricant, for example. There are advantages to volume too, not just pressure. And my understanding is that more volume is becoming the new wave while more pressure is an older approach. Frankly, in extreme pressurizing cases shimming the hell out of a std volume pump in order to genreate big pressures would load a drive system more than using un unshimmed HV pump that is pumping a thinner oil at a greater volume. I don't know that the following is exact but I've heard that Pro Stock racers are down to just 30 psi oil pressure.

But again, all engines are different, all combos are different. And (here I go again!) there is more than one way to skin a cat. In fact, I myself just got schooled again in that last statement, and here's how: I have been trying to figure out a drag racer's engine problem. 1200 hp, repeatedly blowing up. Was a tough one to figure out, and so I consulted with four other colleauges, most of whom are professional engine builders. Guess what? Between the five of us, ALL FIVE had completely differing approaches on how to build this engine. I was shocked at the amount of variation. Some approaches were remotely similar indeed, but different enough that opposing builders would prefer to do is "his" way.

Paul

Mark Miller wrote:Randy and Paul,

Thanks for the great information the class my buddy runs in has a lot of restrictions.That's why he's looking into different ways to pick up power that are legal.

Thanks Mark.

Mark,

When I learn that your original question in this thread stems from a highly restricted racing class where any and all power must be sought out in the name of competition, then I consider starting with a standard volume pump and, during engine combo developemnt, determine whether the HV pump is necesary in such a restricted class.

If you read Randy's points above, you'll notice that Randy is building for pure power more than anything: For example, he notes minimizing bearing clearances and pumping volume so that there is less oil throw-off and resulting parasitic drag on the rotating assy. That's what Randy does a lot of, and that's one reason why he may opt for std pumps more often than HV pumps.

I suggest you (or your friend) start a dedicated thread where the rules of the race program can be evaluated so that you (or he) might be better directed in his build approach.

Paul

Once again, very good info Paul!! Love to learn.

So are you building the 1200HP engine YOUR way???

It is very interesting how many approaches there are to an engine build. A buddy of mine always says when some pos is carving on Fords that an engine doesn't know what name is on it. The more efficiently you can move the air, the more power it will make. Blue, orange, doesn't matter. Well, we know here that the blue ones are better

Bill

billandlori wrote:Once again, very good info Paul!! Love to learn.

So are you building the 1200HP engine YOUR way???

It is very interesting how many approaches there are to an engine build. A buddy of mine always says when some pos is carving on Fords that an engine doesn't know what name is on it. The more efficiently you can move the air, the more power it will make. Blue, orange, doesn't matter. Well, we know here that the blue ones are better

Bill

Billl,

We didn't build this 1200 hp engine, but we do "sponsor" the car, our name is on the side, and some of our components are used, etc. He contacted us when he started experiencing trouble after an engine freshening that incorporated a few changes of his own.

On another horsepower note, we now have a Stage 2 Kit supporting about 2200 hp (Weight/ET/MPH calculated).

Paul

Good imformation and interesting reading. It makes me believe that more thought needs put into a oil pump selection, rather than just grabing a HV and bolting it on.

Thom

Thom Lewis wrote:Good imformation and interesting reading. It makes me believe that more thought needs put into a oil pump selection, rather than just grabing a HV and bolting it on.

Thom

EXACTLY - couldn't have said it better myself...!

It would take pretty consistent car and driver to test a oil pump on the strip! Besides all the data-logging and scientific equipment necessary.

Paul and Randy,

Thanks again for the ideas,my buddy builds his own engines and is trying to be competitive in this Pure Street class so every little bit of horsepower is needed.The class has a 310" ci. limit,.500" lift camshaft,big duration,Dual Plane intake,650 carb,flat top pistons,2 1/2" exhaust,TFS Twisted Wedge head and very little intake porting allowed all the things i mentioned are in the rules.He has gone a best of a 10.68 at 126 mph at over 3,000 lbs.with driver but needs to be in the 10.20's to 10.30's to be with the top runners.He does have some things he's going to try this year and also has a new Boss 302 block he's going to use,he has been using the factory 5.0 hydraulic roller cam block up to this point.

Thanks Mark.

i like to disassemble and hand port and prep a standard volume pump in a application like yours, run oil clearance on the tight side and run light wt oil,(preferably synthetic). if budget allows, run a deep pan, but only run enough oil to get the job done. this will help keep the oil away from the crank.

At the risk of further muddying the waters - a standard - or low volume oil pump, with appropriate reductions in bearing clearances, will have lower oil throw off, allowing the use of lighter tension oil rings, freeing up added frictional horsepower. In other words, as Randy noted, it's all part of a SYSTEM that needs to be thoroughly considered...

fordman460 wrote:It would take pretty consistent car and driver to test a oil pump on the strip! Besides all the data-logging and scientific equipment necessary.

But of course Les is the most scientific well pump motor builder in the world, just ask him........