LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 4th July 2014, 19:19

Like everybody else here, I could only guess. Maybe an oil feed hole to a lifter bore is partially plugged/restricted...but it actually sounds like your trouble is with hard parts. I'd go ahead with trading parts between cylinders and hope that answers your question. BTW, do you already know that all the valve guides are in good shape?
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 4th July 2014, 20:45

maverick wrote:Like everybody else here, I could only guess.  Maybe an oil feed hole to a lifter bore is partially plugged/restricted...but it actually sounds like your trouble is with hard parts.  I'd go ahead with trading parts between cylinders and hope that answers your question.  BTW, do you already know that all the valve guides are in good shape?

The valve guides should be fine. These are brand new aluminum Super Cobra Jet heads. The heads have as many miles on them as the entire engine, which is about 600-800 miles. This entire engine is built with all brand new parts....Question, why were you suspecting valve guides? They wouldn't cause a "ticking" sound....Am I wrong? I've never know this to be the case with any engine...

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 4th July 2014, 21:01

As a matter of fact, I did "hear" a bad valve guide in a small block years ago. I had a 351W in a Cougar and I discovered a bad guide when I investigated valvetrain noise. Rockers, lifters, etc., were ok. Not saying that this is your problem, but if I was in your Reeboks, I'd start to suspect EVERYTHING.

Besides, the age of a part doesn't necessarily indicate its condition. These things are assembled by PEOPLE, and people are fallible.

I'd go ahead with the hole swap, and while I was in there, I'd take a glance at the guides.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  bbf-falcon on 6th July 2014, 00:49

Did you inspect the rockers thoroughly,NO, I mean really inspect them w/magnifying glass?

I hope the pic shows. Mine had a tic tic also that sounded like a loose valve tappet.
http://www.429-460.com/t19596-lucky-catch?highlight=lucky

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 6th July 2014, 03:28

bbf-falcon wrote:Did you inspect the rockers thoroughly,NO, I mean really inspect them w/magnifying glass?

I hope the pic shows. Mine had a tic tic also that sounded like a loose valve tappet.
http://www.429-460.com/t19596-lucky-catch?highlight=lucky

Honestly, I didn't inspect the rocker arms yet because I was convinced it was a lifter, since that's the sound it's emitting. However, I'll be diving back into this project tomorrow and I will getting out my mechanics stethoscope again and take the valve cover off and run the engine (and loose some oil in the process) and see what I can find. I'll also inspect the rocker arms and pushrods thoroughly. Your picture of the rocker arm helped me to know what to look for. I'll post the results of the inspection...

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  Doug Rahn on 6th July 2014, 09:31

I am definitely no Guru on this subject, but IMHO I'm with the guy that said your sucking air somewhere in the oiling system. If it were me I would pull the pan and either look for a crack in the pickup tube or the pump itself, which they both have been known to do. If the oil is aerated enough then pressure may look normal especially sitting there at idle, but with enough air in it it looses it's compressibility to support the plunger in the lifter. Air is compressed much easier than oil. Just a thought since you said it happened all at once.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 6th July 2014, 14:28

Doug Rahn wrote:I am definitely no Guru on this subject, but IMHO I'm with the guy that said your sucking air somewhere in the oiling system. If it were me I would pull the pan and either look for a crack in the pickup tube or the pump itself, which they both have been known to do. If the oil is aerated enough then pressure may look normal especially sitting there at idle, but with enough air in it it looses it's compressibility to support the plunger in the lifter. Air is compressed much easier than oil. Just a thought since you said it happened all at once.

Thanks for the advice. I do plan on pulling the pan and checking the pump and pickup......As I review in my mind the events from the initial onset of the problem to present time, when I sucked air into the system, ALL the lifters were effected. When I got the truck on level ground (even before I added the 2 quarts of oil I was missing), I primed the oil pump and removed all the air from the lifters and the truck ran normal again except for this one lifter that's been giving me issues. With that said, if the oil pump was still sucking air, logic would tell me that ALL the lifters would still be effected, not just one of them......correct????

My plan is to identify which valve train part if damaged (lifter, pushrod, rocker arm, valve spring, or valve) and replace that part first. Then fire up the truck and see if the ticking noise disappears. Then I will pull the oil pan and inspect the oil pump and pickup. I'll be inspecting the valve train this morning with a mechanics stethoscope, so pray I discover what part is damaged. I'm not planning on opening the intake up for the 3rd time just yet until I identify exactly which part is damaged. If it's a rocker arm, then there's no need to remove the intake and replace the last set of lifters (#5); however, the lifters currently in the #5 spot used to be in the #7 spot, which tells me that the lifters are fine. We'll see what happens later today. I'll make a post later....

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 6th July 2014, 14:52

Suspect Arrow 
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 6th July 2014, 15:00

I'm still betting you're gonna find a bad part/s. I've dealt with several cases of air leaking into an oiling system, from cracked pickup tubes to bad gaskets at the pump to loose pump bolts to cracked pump housings....In every case, the oil pressure gauge indicated a problem. Usually with symptoms like S-L-O-W oil pressure rise on startup to an unsteady needle with lower than normal (or no pressure) indicated oil pressure.

Carry on. I feel you're getting close.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 11:19

Update?
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 12:51

Well, the stress and frustration is increasing 10 fold. I still can't figure out what part is giving issues. I removed the valve cover and started the engine and used my mechanics stethoscope trying to find which lifter (or part) was giving me problems. I touched the stethoscope to the rocker studs and the fulcrum point on the rocker arms and I can't hear any difference from one valve to another. I can hear tapping in every lifter/valve, but when you listen to it without the stethoscope, it's obvious there's only one lifter/valve tapping. I'm wondering if the bad lifter/valve is resonating into all the others and maybe that's why I can't pinpoint the exact part giving me trouble? The tapping is super loud, which makes me wonder if it's something other than a lifter. The pushrods are straight and I didn't see any issues with the rocker arms upon inspection.

Question....if I had a bad/broken valve spring, what would be the symptoms? Would it emit a tapping sound like a rocker arm or bad lifter? Im sure it would emit a "miss" that u could hear through the exhaust pipe, correct???? But sucking/pumping air into all the lifters doesn't effect or have anything to do with a valve spring, so a bad valve spring doesn't make sense to me. Im at a loss on what to look for or inspect. I haven't taken the valve springs off and looked at them yet, but like I said, it doesn't make sense that it would be a valve spring. The oil pump is pumping 75 lbs and the oil gauge jumped right up when I started the engine (someone mentioned that if the oil pressure built up slow, then that could indicate a problem).

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 13:06

I know that this may sound stupid at this late stage in your fight, but I'll toss it out anyway....

Sometimes, an exhaust leak at a single exhaust port can make a "clacking" sound. Don't shoot me. I'm grasping at straws, too.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 13:11

I can check, I for that. Won't hurt. I wish I could figure out a way to upload the videos I've taken of the engine running, then you can hear how loud the tapping is. I took a video of the rocker arms also, and they are all getting oil, so it's not an oil starvation problem. I don't know.....I can't figure it out. Don't know what to do next....

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 13:58

Remember, push it out of the garage first...... Smile

Seriously, don't let frustration keep you from being logical and diligent. I know...that's easy for me to say.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 14:10

I don't have to worry about pushing it out of the garage first because I don't have a garage, unfortunately. I'm just gonna blow it up right where it sets!

Trouble shooting is the most difficult part. If I knew what part was the problem, then I could fix it. But at this point, I don't know what part is broke.

Am I on the right track with my theory of the valve spring and that it's probably not the issue given the symptoms I'm having?

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 14:19

When you raise rpm slightly above idle, does the noise change or go away?
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  bosshoss on 7th July 2014, 14:19

While trouble shooting things over the years I have often convinced myself that the answer I did not want to hear was impossible and discarded that possibility. Seems like that decision has come back to haunt me more than once.

Do not discount any theory at this point based on the probability that it just cant be true for some indisputable good reason.  Very Happy 
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 14:28

bosshoss wrote:While trouble shooting things over the years I have often convinced myself that the answer I did not want to hear was impossible and discarded that possibility. Seems like that decision has come back to haunt me more than once.

Do not discount any theory at this point based on the probability that it just cant be true for some indisputable good reason.   Very Happy 

Well said. You're at a point where you have to suspect EVERYTHING that moves.

I asked about the noise changing with rpm because after you've been through every top end piece, you'll have little choice but to look deeper. Forgive me, but the thought of a wrist pin or piston skirt just popped into my head.
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 14:31

Maverick...the noise does not go away, it just gets faster with the increase of rpm. You mentioned wrist pin or piston skirt.....would that make a "ticking" sound like a loose rocker arm would?

Bosshoss....I hear ya and I agree with you. At this point, I guess anything is possible. Im not discounting anythingg, but just trying to use a little logic in the process. For the record, are you referring to anything specific such as the valve springs I was thinking that didn't make sense to be the problem?

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 14:36

Is there a way I can email u the video I took so you can hear the sound it's making? Maybe it will help pinpoint the problem? I tried to attach it and post it on here, but they say the file is too large. I even took a second video and shortened it to only 10 seconds and it's still too big to attach. Can I attach it in a private message on here?

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 14:38

I haven't heard your noise so it's tough to judge....One man's "tick" is another man's "clack" is another man's "knock" or "rattle".

The fact that the the stethoscope didn't pinpoint the noise bothers me. Valvetrain noise differences from one cylinder to another should be really obvious with a stethoscope. Yours all sounded the same...... Suspect 
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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 14:40

Is there a way I can email u the video I took so you can hear the sound it's making? Maybe it will help pinpoint the problem? I tried to attach it and post it on here, but they say the file is too large. I even took a second video and shortened it to only 10 seconds and it's still too big to attach. Can I attach it in a private message on here?

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  bosshoss on 7th July 2014, 14:40

Not referring to anything specific. Just a general statement.

As far as video goes I think you have to use one of those hosting sites where you can post the vid and then attach a link here.

Not that sure. Not a computer geek.

Smile

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  78 F150 on 7th July 2014, 14:41

Is there a way I can email u the video I took so you can hear the sound it's making? Maybe it will help pinpoint the problem? I tried to attach it and post it on here, but they say the file is too large. I even took a second video and shortened it to only 10 seconds and it's still too big to attach. Can I attach it in a private message on here?

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Re: LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Post  maverick on 7th July 2014, 14:41

You have a pm.
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