Need help---starter problems---460 to Powerglide trans.

Ok---so first let me give you as much info as I can----as I realize that the quality of answers I am given will depend on the info I give out.

I have a A460 block mated to a ATI Powerglide transmission with the 460 bellhousing. Because of this I am not running an adaptor plate.

I continue to have starter problems, where the starter does not engage properly, so I am starting from square one to diagnose the problem. I am running an ATI flexplate, and I checked and confirmed I installed the flexplate with the side marked "engine side" towards the engine. Up until this point, I also assumed that I installed the crank / flexplate adaptor ring correctly, because when I bolted up the trans, the converter pads where about 1/8" from the flexplate, very close but it rotated freely. I installed the adaptor ring to the crank, with flexplate on top, then converter--see picture below, is this correct?

But, when I took off the starter, the way it is engaging the flexplate, it looks like the flexplate is too far away from the engine. Only a small part of the starter is engaging to the leading edge of the flexplate---see picture below. This would seem to suggest to me the flexplate needs to be closer to the engine---if I put the flexplate on first, then the adaptor ring, it looks like this problem would be solved---but then the converter pads would be too far away--and when I bolt it up to the flexplate it would pull the converter away from the pump engagment. I hope I am making sense here.

So based on the pictures below, and what I described above, did I install the adaptor ring wrong or is there another issue here?

ditch that starter and and go down to the chain parts store..............get a 49.95 starter from like a 95 F250 auto trans..............I bet she will be fine........

For reference get the distance from the surface where the starter bolts up to the leading edge of the fw.



on second thought you say there is no plate between the block and bell? they just mate to one another?

If so this could be your depth issue.......I use a .100 thick midplate and the starter bolts directly to the bell............but it seems even with half a width of the fp it would still crank over fine.

richter69 wrote:ditch that starter and and go down to the chain parts store..............get a 49.95 starter from like a 95 F250 auto trans..............I bet she will be fine........

For reference get the distance from the surface where the starter bolts up to the leading edge of the fw.



on second thought you say there is no plate between the block and bell? they just mate to one another?

i just called all 3 parts store and there is no 50 dollar starter Jon ....whats the secret .....(134-150 plus 34 doll core )


sorry to hijack your thread

shit must be higher in Alabama.

I got mine for free....they were cleaning out old stock in the parts dept one day...........these be "Fred Jones" starters..............Lem knows lol.

Try taking the shim out of that starter that should help. How much clearance now when the starter is disengaged?

dkp

It may be more of a "how deep are the teeth meshing" deal than the gear not coming out far enough. Meaning only the very outer edges of the teeth are engaging eah other.

richter69 wrote:ditch that starter and and go down to the chain parts store..............get a 49.95 starter from like a 95 F250 auto trans..............I bet she will be fine........

For reference get the distance from the surface where the starter bolts up to the leading edge of the fw.

on second thought you say there is no plate between the block and bell? they just mate to one another?

If so this could be your depth issue.......I use a .100 thick midplate and the starter bolts directly to the bell............but it seems even with half a width of the fp it would still crank over fine.

I have to stick to a mini starter that I can rotate because of the headers. My starter bolts directly to the bellhousing also---but I am not running a midplate as I have the ATI 460 bell that bolts to the PowerGlide supercase. Since the starter bolts directly to the bell, anything that pushes the bell back would help--as it looks like the starter is engaging only the front half of the flexplate.

bosshoss wrote:Try taking the shim out of that starter that should help. How much clearance now when the starter is disengaged?

dkp

I don't know--I will measure.

BigDave65 wrote:It may be more of a "how deep are the teeth meshing" deal than the gear not coming out far enough. Meaning only the very outer edges of the teeth are engaging eah other.

Yeah--thats what it looks like--the starter gears are damaged only on the tip, and the flexplate--the ring gear itself is not damaged, just the black paint is removed. It seems like the gears are not deep enough--like you say--but I have no idea how to fix that other then try another starter.

It looks to me like the starter drive is too far away from the tooth, just the tips of the teeth are touching. If it was a GM,you would need to take the shim out between the starter and block, to move the mesh of the teeth closer together.

the factory 95 starter is a "mini" gear reduction style.............

can you take measurment from the starter mounting on the bell to the flexplate front side plus the width of the teeth. then put starter in a vice or clamp it down and put 12 volts to it an measure starter mounting face lip with bolt hole. u can run the the for along time so you can measure. see if the starter will extend the starter drive enough.

To fix the very same problem on my JW bellhousing, I slotted the bottom hole of the mounting plate on a milling machine, to rotate the starter into the flywheel about an 1/8". The trick to making this work is when you push the starter over, you have to place a small piece of wire or something into the hole, the same thickness of the mounting flange or a little less, to keep it from sliding back when you start cranking on it.

This may sound a little crazy but it works perfect for me.

richter69 wrote:shit must be higher in Alabama.

I got mine for free....they were cleaning out old stock in the parts dept one day...........these be "Fred Jones" starters..............Lem knows lol.

D B Electric sells them for $42.95.

Lem Evans wrote:

richter69 wrote:shit must be higher in Alabama.

I got mine for free....they were cleaning out old stock in the parts dept one day...........these be "Fred Jones" starters..............Lem knows lol.

D B Electric sells them for $42.95.

Thats where I bought mine from and have never had a problem with it but my compression is only 12.5 but will spin the engine good. Jim

psfracer wrote:if I put the flexplate on first, then the adaptor ring, it looks like this problem would be solved---but then the converter pads would be too far away--and when I bolt it up to the flexplate it would pull the converter away from the pump engagment.

I would go this route and put some shims between the converter pads and the flexplate. A couple of hardened washers will do the trick.

Lem Evans wrote:

richter69 wrote:shit must be higher in Alabama.

I got mine for free....they were cleaning out old stock in the parts dept one day...........these be "Fred Jones" starters..............Lem knows lol.

D B Electric sells them for $42.95.

http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-1687-75-liter.aspx

what is the adaptor ring good for if it fits on both sides?is it more of a shim than adaptor? i have a reid case glide and a jw wheel and it fit as good as the c4 i took out.i also use a jegs starter.your converter may have been setup for a mid plate.all converters damn sure dont fit the same.

What is the purpose of the adapter ring between the crank and flexplate?

From looking at your pictures I would bolt the flexplate to the crank without the adapter. That would get the flexplate where it needs to be in relation to the starter mounting surface.

I think what confuses some people is the midplate/no midplate scenario. It doesn't matter if you have a midplate a foot thick, if the starter still bolts to the engine side of it the flexplate still needs to bolt directly to the crank. Now, if the flexplate is designed to offset the ring gear back then you'll need to move the starter back the same distance. But, that is not the case here from looking at your setup...

So, here's what I would do...

1) Keep the starter you have. You already said you have to anyway.
2) Remove the adapter betwen the crank and flexplate
3) Shim the converter with some Grade 8 hardened washers.


On a side note, how do you like the ATI case/bell combo? I'm looking to purchase one this week.

jbozzelle wrote:What is the purpose of the adapter ring between the crank and flexplate?

From looking at your pictures I would bolt the flexplate to the crank without the adapter. That would get the flexplate where it needs to be in relation to the starter mounting surface.

I think what confuses some people is the midplate/no midplate scenario. It doesn't matter if you have a midplate a foot thick, if the starter still bolts to the engine side of it the flexplate still needs to bolt directly to the crank. Now, if the flexplate is designed to offset the ring gear back then you'll need to move the starter back the same distance. But, that is not the case here from looking at your setup...

So, here's what I would do...

1) Keep the starter you have. You already said you have to anyway.
2) Remove the adapter betwen the crank and flexplate
3) Shim the converter with some Grade 8 hardened washers.


On a side note, how do you like the ATI case/bell combo? I'm looking to purchase one this week.

x2!

I really like the supercase and 460 bellhousing setup. I needed a setup where I did not need to run a trans shield. ATI did mention that you need to get the ATI 460 bellhousing (the J&W one would not fit properly) to the ATI supercase. That wasn't an issue for me though as I got everything from ATI.

Ok, I called ATI--I did put the adapter ring on correctly, and I do in fact need it even though I am not running a mid plate because of the pilot bearing size.

According to ATI, this setup is designed to work with the throw of a standard ford starter. I am thinking that with this particular starter, I had to rotate it almost upside down in order for it to clear the headers. Maybe by rotating it this much changed the throw a bit? In any case I do have a couple ideas to test it.

You could have the flex plate on backwards if it has an offset ring gear to accommodate the thickness of the spacer for the converter pilot.

KY JELLY wrote:You could have the flex plate on backwards if it has an offset ring gear to accommodate the thickness of the spacer for the converter pilot.

very good point,i had a tci like that.

KY JELLY wrote:You could have the flex plate on backwards if it has an offset ring gear to accommodate the thickness of the spacer for the converter pilot.

The flexplate had a sticker on it clearly labeling the "engine side". I did verify that, but if I need to take everything apart I could check how it fits by mounting it the other way, just to see.

I am going to start by measuring the starter gear on the bench when I give it 12v, then compare to another starter just to verify that. I am also going to rotate the starter and see if that makes any difference. Lastly, I may have to move the starter in closer so the gear engagement is not so shallow. When I look at the pictures closely, it looks like I have two problems---the starter gear is only engaging about half of the ring gear on the flexplate, AND its too shallow on top of that.

At least I am making progress, as on Saturday I had no idea what the problem was. Thanks everyone for the help so far.

The sticker could have been put on the wrong side of the flexplate . Is it offset towards the block or the transmission ?

psfracer wrote:I really like the supercase and 460 bellhousing setup. I needed a setup where I did not need to run a trans shield. ATI did mention that you need to get the ATI 460 bellhousing (the J&W one would not fit properly) to the ATI supercase. That wasn't an issue for me though as I got everything from ATI.

Thanks. I plan to get the bell with it.