Oiling modifications... and how much power?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Lem Evans on October 9th 2017, 11:32 am

nickpohlaandp wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:Don't fill the block and don't buy one of those main girdle things.

You gonna stroke this engine?  

Yes, my intention is to go 0.060 over and use a 4.300 Lunati crank.

As far as block fill, I had no intention of doing that. This is going to see mostly street use.

Two things. First, thank you for actually engaging in a conversation, and second, I've seen the "forget about a girdle" comment quite a few times. Other than it being unnecessary, is there any reason why people keep saying this? I'm guessing a windage tray and possibly a vacuum pump on the crankcase are still going to be "do's" though, right?

It's best to get a pan that has a tray included rather that go thru the trouble and expense of hanging something from the main bolts/studs.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 11:59 am

Lem Evans wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:Don't fill the block and don't buy one of those main girdle things.

You gonna stroke this engine?  

Yes, my intention is to go 0.060 over and use a 4.300 Lunati crank.

As far as block fill, I had no intention of doing that. This is going to see mostly street use.

Two things. First, thank you for actually engaging in a conversation, and second, I've seen the "forget about a girdle" comment quite a few times. Other than it being unnecessary, is there any reason why people keep saying this? I'm guessing a windage tray and possibly a vacuum pump on the crankcase are still going to be "do's" though, right?

It's best to get a pan that has a tray included rather that go thru the trouble and expense of hanging something from the main bolts/studs.

Where might I find such a wonderful piece? Someone I met put me on to a place called D&D Automotive Specialties. They seem to have a lot of stuff for BBF swaps into Fox bodies. Other than that I know absolutely nothing about them.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Doug Rahn on October 9th 2017, 12:20 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:I understand what you are all saying about valvespring maintenance. When you get up to 800 lbs over the nose at full lift, you're putting some stress on parts. This is one of the reasons I'm considering going with a hydraulic roller vs a solid roller. With the solid roller I'd be looking at something like 500-550 at max lift, which is a lot more reasonable, not to mention the hydraulic lifters would be a lot more friendly on the street. To give the valvesprings the best chance at survival I was planning on running COMP's new conical valve springs. They have the advantages of beehive and then some. I'm not expecting to get 100k worry free miles out of this engine, but I also don't want to be changing lifters every time I do an oil change.

I understand where you're coming from on using a smaller lift cam, but that would totally negate the use of A460 heads in that range. You would be leaving a lot on the table. Like Freelander said, P51's or TFS Streets would probably be a better choice and cheaper.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 12:31 pm

Doug Rahn wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:I understand where you're coming from on using a smaller lift cam, but that would totally negate the use of A460 heads in that range. You would be leaving a lot on the table. Like Freelander said, P51's or TFS Streets would probably be a better choice and cheaper.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I can't be "dead set" on the TF A460 heads. First and foremost, it would be a financially irresponsible move. I'm good at making those, but I try to avoid it when I can. All the TF A460's are set up for solid roller with the valve springs. At the very least I'd need to change out the valve springs to make them work with what I'm wanting. That's around $700 on top of the price of the assembled heads. I've done the math and it would actually be cheaper to buy the assembled heads and change out the valve springs vs. purchasing the bare heads and buying the parts to match.

With that said, the A460's out flow the SCJ and P-51's by leaps and bounds, especially at the lower lifts. The most important area of flow it the first 70is degrees of crank rotation after the intake opens, so low lift is important. I know I won't be using the heads to their utmost potential if I throw a hydraulic roller in there, but I'd get more out of them than I will the SCJ's or P-51's.

I'm not a HUGE fan of being stuck with one intake choice with the A460's, so that's another down side to them. I'd love to tell you what the decision is ultimately going to come down to, but I just don't know. I do know that if I put SCJ's on there and get it running all happy and nice then take it to the strip and click off a best of 10.5... I'm gonnna be less than happy. My #1 goal for this car is break into 9's on motor.

Edit: I say #1 goal, but there's a caveat. I have to be able to break into the 9's and then drive it home too. My old car would run consistent low 10's on spray. I'd drive it to the track, flog the crap out of it, then drive it home. (knocking on wood) I never once had to call to get a tow home. I think that just makes the evening just that much more fun when you can drive your car to the track, put down some impressive times, then drive it home. It says a lot about the engine, drivetrain, and builder.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  5pointslow on October 9th 2017, 12:45 pm

why do you need a460's to run into the 9s ?
me personally id only be running a460 heads on an A460block were i could get a big bore in there to use with those big valves in the a heads this also would be more of an 8 second type deal
i think we all understand you want your cake and want to eat it to







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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  5pointslow on October 9th 2017, 12:48 pm

also im not 100% possitive and please correct me if im wrong
but a stock block with a460 heads may run into issues shrouding the valves with the bigger valve a460 heads

2.3 intake valves i think are fine , im not sure about the 2.35 with an .080 over .....you may want to find that out as well like i said im not 100% sure but i recall seeing a topic or thread on that
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 9th 2017, 12:51 pm

Curt wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:IF I was in your situation ... I would do a lot of reading using the SEARCH function about all this.

Wow! That's some profound advice. It's almost as if I'd never used a forum before. When so many people suggested I come here because the people are so nice, helpful, and knowledgeable about the 385 series, I had no idea they meant I'd get such great input from my very first reply. I never would've thought to search. Thanks a lot.

If this site and its members are the rose, Randy is definitely our thorn. He's a pretty smart guy, but vertically challenged and takes it out on anyone who dares to ask a question that might have been asked here before (on this site or anywhere else in the universe). If you can ignore him for the most part, you'll enjoy to camaraderie of Nick's site and his members.  You'll find that the most knowledge will come from folks with the last name of Evans.

Welcome

This kind of crap is completely off-base and unnecessary ... no I am not 6 feet tall but, no one except you considers 5'9" vertically challenged.

NOW ... say something worth a damn and productive --- if you are able.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 9th 2017, 12:53 pm

5pointslow wrote:also im not 100% possitive and please correct me if im wrong
but a stock block with a460 heads may run into issues shrouding the valves with the bigger valve a460 heads

2.3 intake valves i think are fine , im not sure about the 2.35 with an .080 over .....you may want to find that out as well like i said im not 100% sure but i recall seeing a topic or thread on that

YES ... you are correct. 2.300" and 1.880" valves are necessary for a 4.390" bore.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 1:10 pm

5pointslow wrote:also im not 100% possitive and please correct me if im wrong
but a stock block with a460 heads may run into issues shrouding the valves with the bigger valve a460 heads

2.3 intake valves i think are fine , im not sure about the 2.35 with an .080 over .....you may want to find that out as well like i said im not 100% sure but i recall seeing a topic or thread on that

Well, this is turning out to be one of those things that got me to go from my BBC over to BBF. I'm the type of person who is used to overbuilding the living daylights out of stuff so I can beat it like a red headed stepchild and know it won't mind. When I first got the car I had every intention of building a BIG BBC to power it. I'm used to BBC's, I've built them, I've never looked into Ford. After enough razzing from my Ford friends I decided to quit being so stubborn and eventually came to the conclusion that BBF is the way to go... for any big block. They're way stronger in every aspect. I still dream about owning another 1970 Chevelle, but if I do get one it'll most likely get a BBF and completely piss off everyone in the Chevy world.

What I'm learning as I go more into the research phase of this engine build is that the A460's are a kick ass head, but the 1.5" raised exhaust port is going to present some serious roadblocks when it comes to expelling the exhaust gases. It's looking like I need to be a little realistic and consider using the SCJ or P-51 heads. The SCJ's would need a little work IMO, but the P-51's are pretty close out of the box.

This is all a learning phase for me right now. This is how I operate. I research and ask A LOT of questions before I start acquiring parts. I find that this keeps me out of trouble. That's why I'm here. The friendly folks from SpeedTalk and YellowBullet steered me this direction saying that I'd get the best advice on this forum.

This is a little off the subject so if it gets overlooked I'll start a new thread, but does anyone know what the main journal, torqued down, with no bearings installed, measures in the block? Is it around 3.180, 3.190, 3.195? I've gotten a few different answers and I was curious if anyone knew what it SHOULD be. I pulled my #4 cap off and measured about 3.195

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 1:20 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:

YES ... you are correct. 2.300" and 1.880" valves are necessary for a 4.390" bore.

I'll be at 4.420 bore, but that's not enough of a difference to unshroud too large of a valve.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 1:20 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:This kind of crap is completely off-base and unnecessary ... no I am not 6 feet tall but, no one except you considers 5'9" vertically challenged.

NOW ... say something worth a damn and productive --- if you are able.

Hey man, it's cool. My stepmom is 5'9"

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Bosskk1786 on October 9th 2017, 1:40 pm

Have you considered boss 9 heads?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 2:01 pm

Bosskk1786 wrote:Have you considered boss 9 heads?

Nope. Fitting an A460 will be hard enough. Boss 9's I might as well cut the car in half and widen it. Those things flow like a mofo and make killer power, but they're wider than a damn Ford mod motor.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Bosskk1786 on October 9th 2017, 2:09 pm

Actually you don't have to cut anything to put a boss in a fox body. There are several that I've seen. Mod motor is just a touch wider I do believe... Spark plugs reading and changing would be much easier

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Lem Evans on October 9th 2017, 2:25 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:Don't fill the block and don't buy one of those main girdle things.

You gonna stroke this engine?  

Yes, my intention is to go 0.060 over and use a 4.300 Lunati crank.

As far as block fill, I had no intention of doing that. This is going to see mostly street use.

Two things. First, thank you for actually engaging in a conversation, and second, I've seen the "forget about a girdle" comment quite a few times. Other than it being unnecessary, is there any reason why people keep saying this? I'm guessing a windage tray and possibly a vacuum pump on the crankcase are still going to be "do's" though, right?

It's best to get a pan that has a tray included rather that go thru the trouble and expense of hanging something from the main bolts/studs.

Where might I find such a wonderful piece? Someone I met put me on to a place called D&D Automotive Specialties. They seem to have a lot of stuff for BBF swaps into Fox bodies. Other than that I know absolutely nothing about them.

If an "off the rack" pan is the budget Moroso has a decent fox style pan. I'll have to look but, I think we may still have one of the FRPP crate engine fox pans.....has solid louvered tray....very good design.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 9th 2017, 4:21 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:

The SCJ's would need a little work IMO, but the P-51's are pretty close out of the box.

This is a little off the subject so if it gets overlooked I'll start a new thread, but does anyone know what the main journal, torqued down, with no bearings installed, measures in the block? Is it around 3.180, 3.190, 3.195? I've gotten a few different answers and I was curious if anyone knew what it SHOULD be. I pulled my #4 cap off and measured about 3.195

YES ... the SCJ's make a really good street/strip type head if you have no intention of using over .700" net valve lift; especially with a little valve work and simple intake port matching and bowl porting.
Use the P-51's for any lifts higher than that.

The recommended main bore specs are 3.1922" / 3.1930".

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 4:49 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:The recommended main bore specs are 3.1922" / 3.1930".

Thanks![/quote]

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  BOSS 429 on October 9th 2017, 6:20 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:
Bosskk1786 wrote:Have you considered boss 9 heads?

Nope. Fitting an A460 will be hard enough. Boss 9's I might as well cut the car in half and widen it. Those things flow like a mofo and make killer power, but they're wider than a damn Ford mod motor.



BOSS 429S fit fox bodys very well, no harder to work on then anything else
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Doug Rahn on October 9th 2017, 6:31 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:
What I'm learning as I go more into the research phase of this engine build is that the A460's are a kick ass head, but the 1.5" raised exhaust port is going to present some serious roadblocks when it comes to expelling the exhaust gases

Actually it's not an issue, there are quite a few on here including myself that have A460's in a Fox. Off the shelf stuff it could be a issue finding something that fits worth a damn.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 7:20 pm

Doug Rahn wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:
What I'm learning as I go more into the research phase of this engine build is that the A460's are a kick ass head, but the 1.5" raised exhaust port is going to present some serious roadblocks when it comes to expelling the exhaust gases

Actually it's not an issue, there are quite a few on here including myself that have A460's in a Fox. Off the shelf stuff it could be a issue finding something that fits worth a damn.

You used to work at Gulfstream? In Savannah?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  BigRigTech on October 9th 2017, 9:06 pm

My 600HP 472" deal will go 9.90's in good air at about 3050lbs race weight. Nothing fancy about my junk, old ported A429's with a stock motorsport intake and 1050 domi. .641/.677 SFT cam. Stock block, stock main and head bolts with no main girdle. No oiling mod's what so ever other than an HV pump. Canton pan with a windage tray. Turn's 6600-6800 at the finish line. I can't see how a set of SCJ or P51's couldn't easily accomplish what you want to do and live just fine on the street.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 11:22 pm

BigRigTech wrote:My 600HP 472" deal will go 9.90's in good air at about 3050lbs race weight. Nothing fancy about my junk, old ported A429's with a stock motorsport intake and 1050 domi. .641/.677 SFT cam. Stock block, stock main and head bolts with no main girdle. No oiling mod's what so ever other than an HV pump. Canton pan with a windage tray. Turn's 6600-6800 at the finish line. I can't see how a set of SCJ or P51's couldn't easily accomplish what you want to do and live just fine on the street.

What gearing and tire size are you running?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  5pointslow on October 9th 2017, 11:28 pm

i know you said your new to bbf , bigrig a429 heads are not the same as "a" heads if you didnt know

a429 cobra jet older ford alum heads
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Doug Rahn on October 10th 2017, 8:07 am

nickpohlaandp wrote:
Doug Rahn wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:
What I'm learning as I go more into the research phase of this engine build is that the A460's are a kick ass head, but the 1.5" raised exhaust port is going to present some serious roadblocks when it comes to expelling the exhaust gases

Actually it's not an issue, there are quite a few on here including myself that have A460's in a Fox. Off the shelf stuff it could be a issue finding something that fits worth a damn.

You used to work at Gulfstream? In Savannah?

Yes sir. I retired as a Sr. Master Craftsman back in Jan. 2015, worked there for 42 years.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  D. Sea on October 10th 2017, 8:27 am

Lots of good advice so far. IMO with your goals I'd lean towards a conventional type aluminum head like mentioned already and don't overlook a well setup A429 package. Mine has been 9.25 at 147mph N/A at 3200#

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